1401 Meteorological Flight

[Ed Russell]

I have been reading this interesting book - "Target for Tonight" by S/L Denys Braithwaite, who was, amongst his other postings, a member of 1401 Met Flt. in 1942 at Bircham Newton. Early in his story is the following

As I reached the tarmac a black mass that was the hangar began to bulge out of the wet slate-grey, and the voice of an airman unmuffled itself: 'The new chap going up, d'you think?' 'Shouldn't think so, Bert,' came the reply. ' A bit bad for him, I should say. On the other hand, he didn't do badly the other day. Ruddy well frightened to death he was, but that's best. It's blokes that are not frightened when they make a man-vegetables of things that really frighten me. Cor, 'ow I'd hate to see our old N5601 written off.' N5601 was the Gladiator I was about to fly.

Also in the book is this illustration of the author in front of an unidentified Gladiator.



Further interesting notes follow about 1401's legendary ability to fly in all weather, fulfilling every request for flights without fail.

Then Not for nothing did each plane bear a crest depicting a skull and crossbones under an umbrella, with the motto below "Semper in excreta"


accompanied by a picture



Now my questions

1. There is no crest visible on the picture so I suppose it was on the aft fuselage or the tail? (No - see Edgar below)
2. Can anyone identify the Gladiator panels that the crest is painted on? (Probably not a Gladiator - see below)
3. Is the area behind the crest Dark Green? It seems awfully dark.
4. It looks like the code (inconveniently behind the pilot as usual) is Sky or Medium Sea Grey and a single letter. Any code/serial tie-ups? (ty Seahawk and others too)
Thanks, SoGlad for this "The Gladiator that Denys Braithwaite is standing in front of is K8043:E" Now corrected in Post 19 to N5897.
5. Roden did a 1/48 boxing of the Gladiator with 1401/1402 Met Flt. Has anyone got this kit and would share some information? (Thanks, NM, more needed though)
6. Any pictures of the meteorological equipment that was used on these aircraft.
7: were these aircraft in Dark Earth/Dark Green/Sky or Ocean Grey/Dark Green/Sea Grey Medium? (ty Seahawk and others)

Semper in Excreta = Always in the Sh*t

Edited June 8, 2013 by Ed Russell

[Seahawk]

4. It looks like the code (inconveniently behind the pilot as usual) is Sky or Medium Sea Grey and a single letter. Any code/serial tie-ups?

From Sturtivant/Hamlin/Halley: RAF Flying Training and Support Units (Air-Britain, 1997) it seems that 1401 Flight had two existences, split by the period during which it comprised part of 521 Squadron (1/8/42 to 1/4/43). For the first period N5621 D is listed as a example of its Gladiators, for the second K8043 E. Jefford gives the dates of the 521 Sq interruption as 22/7/42 to 22/3/43.

Mason: The Gloster Gladiator (MacDonald, 1964) lists the following as among the Gladiators that served with 521 Sq: N2307, N2309, N2310, N5594, N5621, N5897, N5902 and K8043. They may have come from/gone to 1401 Flight. No code tie-ins though.

The close-up of the unit badge is a great find. Good luck with your other queries!

Edited February 10, 2011 by Seahawk

[sanguin]

Dear Ed,

The Roden kit has markings for N2309 B at Bircham Newton 1942-43.

If you click on the transfer sheet on this review, you can see what Roden offered:

http://www.ipmsusa2.org/reviews/Kits/Aircr...8_gladiator.htm

I have to assume that they have it right, but have not yet found the picture to confirm it.

The code letter B seems to be white on the sheet, that may be subject to debate as well.

However, as to the picture of the badge and motto you may find this helpful if you read the thread:

http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthrea...nslation-Needed

I have not yet seen anything else to either deny or confirm the story about the badge and motto.

Therefore the image that you show may not actually have been on a Gladiator....I leave that to those who may know!

John

[Seahawk]

Dear Ed,

The Roden kit has markings for N2309 B at Bircham Newton 1942-43.

If you click on the transfer sheet on this review, you can see what Roden offered:

http://www.ipmsusa2.org/reviews/Kits/Aircr...8_gladiator.htm

I have to assume that they have it right, but have not yet found the picture to confirm it.

The code letter B seems to be white on the sheet, that may be subject to debate as well.

However, as to the picture of the badge and motto you may find this helpful if you read the thread:

http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthrea...nslation-Needed

I have not yet seen anything else to either deny or confirm the story about the badge and motto.

Therefore the image that you show may not actually have been on a Gladiator....I leave that to those who may know!

John

Hmm. Like you, I'd tread carefully on those markings. None of the photos I've seen so far of Gladiators in Type C markings show a fin flash covering the whole fin and I'm suspicious of the style as well as the colour of the code letter. Scheme possibly derived from artwork in the Mushroom Gladiator book which shows N2309 in 1943 : Ocean Grey and Green and Sea Grey Medium underside, white code B in non-standard style but normal size fin flash. So is that a Question 7: were these aircraft in Dark Earth/Dark Green/Sky or Ocean Grey/Dark Green/Sea Grey Medium?

Do you know if the Roden kit provides any specific met-assoc fittings for this version? The Mushroom Monthly book has a side view of a Gladiator II "with meteorological equipment below the side windscreen" but the only difference I can see is a small (c. 2mm in 1/72) circle in the bottom front corner of the panel below the port windscreen. In the artwork the circle looks as if it's slightly domed.

Good find on the history of the badge.

[Seahawk]

However, as to the picture of the badge and motto you may find this helpful if you read the thread:

http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthrea...nslation-Needed

Following the idea in the link that the badge and motto were initially carried on 1403 Flight's Blenheims, I wonder if the diagonal line in the top lefthand corner is the edge of a Blenheim IV's nose glazing? That's about where it would come if you chose the obvious place for nose art.

Edited February 10, 2011 by Seahawk

[Edgar]

Just a word of caution; the entire back end of a Gladiator was fabric-covered, so you're not likely to find that many domed rivets. 521 Squadron, in 1942, are listed as flying Hudson III, Spitfire Va/Vb, Mosquito IV (also virtually rivet-free, except the nacelles,) as well as the Gladiators.

Edgar

Edited February 10, 2011 by Edgar

[sanguin]

Dear Ed,

A couple more sites that I have found that you might find useful in your quest:

http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthrea...ot-names-sought

and

http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/gladiator_raf_521.htm

Both sites are worth a wander-the second one has links to 1401 Flight that also take you to its brief precursor, 401 Flight.

As ever, just because it is on the internet don't necessarily make it true, though!

I agree with Seahawk and Edgar re. the badge and motto-it may well be the front end of a Blenheim.

I haven't been able to prove it by finding the relevant close-up image of an ordinary IV to allow the counting and distribution of rivets, perhaps someone else can do that.

For once, rivet-counting is definitely indicated.

John

[Colin S-K]

Ed,

Got some information that might help, and one photo, N2309, coded B, I believe to be grey/green. Shows some detail of eqpt.

Give me an email at,

[email protected]

Can email them back to you.

Colin

[DCRanger]

A different serial to the one mentioned in the text but the same aircraft as in the photo?

Edited February 10, 2011 by DCRanger

[SoGlad]

I came across this thread this weekend, if anyone is still reading it I thought I’d add a little detail to it; I've always been fascinated by the second line duties that Gladiators soldiered on with until the end of the war.

The Gladiator that Denys Braithwaite is standing in front of at the head of this thread is K8043:E. There is another photograph of it with different pilot, clearly showing the exact same wear on the fuselage roundel and the code letter E.

You'll notice on the photo of N2309:B that there is a dipole aerial beneath the rear fuselage and that the radio mast behind the cockpit is taller, non-tapered and thicker than the normal ones.

In Denys's book, he mentions that they took altitude readings from an instrument on their laps, correlated with a thermometer strapped on the starboard wing strut (using a big torch to see it with in the case of cloud!). The thermometer can be seen on the famous picture of a Gladiator flying over an RAF officer and his sports saloon. Denys also says that the motto 'Semper in Excreta' was removed from aircraft when WAAFs arrived at Bircham; it was never applied to the Gladiators.

I've never been convinced that Met Gladiators were finished in Dark Green and Dark Sea Grey. The tonal difference between the two colours in photographs look too close; I've always assumed that they were in a secondary duty camouflage; Dark Green, Dark Earth and Sky. However as they operated out over the sea and the Meteorological Flights were part of Coastal Command, they could well have been Extra Dark Sea Grey, Dark Slate Grey and Sky. The code letters would have been Sky, whatever the other colours.

[Nick Millman]

I've never been convinced that Met Gladiators were finished in Dark Green and Dark Sea Grey. The tonal difference between the two colours in photographs look too close; I've always assumed that they were in a secondary duty camouflage; Dark Green, Dark Earth and Sky.

Do you mean Ocean Grey instead of Dark Sea Grey? Dark Sea Grey is around Munsell 2.6 PB 4.2/1.0 whilst Ocean Grey is 2.6 B 4.1/1.1.

Ocean Grey is closest to FS 26152 @ 2.70 but is significantly more blueish. Dark Sea Grey is even closer @ 2.12 but that is because it is less blue to begin with. One thing that continues to puzzle me are contemporary colloquial references to "purple grey" or "purplish grey" for Ocean Grey which ought to imply PB rather than B.

Your observation of the tonal difference is interesting because many here seem to believe that TLS shows more tonal contrast in photographs than DFS. I'm with you - the opposite is true.

Diffuse reflectivity differences between upper surface paint colours:-

TLS 6%

DFS 9%

Of course that is a generalisation and does not account for the combined factors of surface angle, illuminant differences and paint surface changes which people speculating in at least two other threads might bear in mind. In reality it probably comes down to which paint surface faded and chalked more - Dark Earth or Ocean Grey - and I'm not sure such quantifications are known or ever will be.

[Seahawk]

I came across this thread this weekend, if anyone is still reading it I thought I’d add a little detail to it; I've always been fascinated by the second line duties that Gladiators soldiered on with until the end of the war.

The Gladiator that Denys Braithwaite is standing in front of at the head of this thread is K8043:E. There is another photograph of it with different pilot, clearly showing the exact same wear on the fuselage roundel and the code letter E.

You'll notice on the photo of N2309:B that there is a dipole aerial beneath the rear fuselage and that the radio mast behind the cockpit is taller, non-tapered and thicker than the normal ones.

In Denys's book, he mentions that they took altitude readings from an instrument on their laps, correlated with a thermometer strapped on the starboard wing strut (using a big torch to see it with in the case of cloud!). The thermometer can be seen on the famous picture of a Gladiator flying over an RAF officer and his sports saloon. Denys also says that the motto 'Semper in Excreta' was removed from aircraft when WAAFs arrived at Bircham; it was never applied to the Gladiators.

I've never been convinced that Met Gladiators were finished in Dark Green and Dark Sea Grey. The tonal difference between the two colours in photographs look too close; I've always assumed that they were in a secondary duty camouflage; Dark Green, Dark Earth and Sky. However as they operated out over the sea and the Meteorological Flights were part of Coastal Command, they could well have been Extra Dark Sea Grey, Dark Slate Grey and Sky. The code letters would have been Sky, whatever the other colours.

Yes, we are still reading it and thank you for the contribution: an excellent first post. Can't quite make out a dipole under the fuselage of N2309 though can see some sort of rod antenna running along the fuselage underside. Do you have any clearer pics or description please? Is that also some kind of aerial coming out of the rear of the radio mast and entering the fin low down?

Can you point us towards a book that has the "famous" shot of the Gladiator and sports saloon please?

Think I'm with you re Dark Earth rather than Ocean Grey.

Regards and welcome to the forum.

[Ed Russell]

I came across this thread this weekend, if anyone is still reading it I

Welcome to BM.

I'm sure people are still reading it and thanks for your efforts - any more pictures etc are most welcome.

I am impressed by how much extra information has come to light but I see that my question re the Roden Gladiator kit is still unanswered!

[Nick Millman]

There is a review here which shows box art and the decal sheet: -

Roden Met R & Foreign Service

And a bit more here: -

Roden Gladiator

[Ed Russell]

There is a review here which shows box art and the decal sheet: -

Roden Met R & Foreign Service

And a bit more here: -

Roden Gladiator

Thanks, most kind of you - I had seen the first but not the second. Unfortunately neither really helps with the Meteorological stuff although the box art (DE/DG/whatever) is interesting as are the decals.

The Roden kit seems nice enough but I'm a 1/72 builder - I have seen the neat little Sword effort and plan to use this as my Met one.

Edited April 24, 2011 by Ed Russell

[Jb65rams]

Interesting thread. Thanks. Some of the links have proved useful.

My father was ground crew with 1560 Met Flight, based in Nigeria. I didn't realise they operated the Gladiator, he has only ever mentioned Hurricanes.

I will ask him when I see him next weekend.

jb

[SoGlad]

Thanks for the kind comments. I don't know why I wrote dipole aerial, I meant antenna; I also meant Ocean Grey.

The 'aerial' running from the mast to the lower fin is one of the rigging wires on the starboard wing.

I don't trust the reference in the Roden notes to a light fitted to illuminate the thermometer. All the accounts I've read mention the use of a hand held torch and I've never seen any evidence of a light on any photographs. Doesn't mean it's wrong though; I'd just like to see where they got their information.

I've attached two photographs; the first is the RAF officer, car and Gladiator, the second one is of K8043:E, the pilot is being handed an instrument and I'm not sure if it's a thermometer or a barograph,

[Seahawk]

The 'aerial' running from the mast to the lower fin is one of the rigging wires on the starboard wing.

So it is. Obvious when you know.

Your latest picture of N5897 E is interesting: although it shows the relevant area as clearly as one could wish, there is absolutely zero sign of the "meteorological equipment below the side windscreen" as shown (as a shaded circle) in the drawing in the Mushroom Monthly Gladiator book (p.46).

Edit: serial corrected in the light of the next post.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Seahawk

[SoGlad]

I've never been sure what the "meteorological equipment below the side windscreen" in the Mushroom Monthly Gladiator book is meant to be; I don't know where Alex Crawford got the idea from. I have never seen any evidence of it on photographs and it isn't mentioned in any literature I have seen on Met flight Gladiators.

I have to admit a mistake in my first post. I said that the Gladiator at the begining of the thread was K8043:E. I have now discovered that it is in fact N5897:E. This is the same aircraft as the one in my last post where the pilot is being handed an instrument. N5897 came from 247 Squadron where it had been stationed at Roborough during the Battle of Britain. It crashed in March 1943 and the code E then went to K8043.

[Seahawk]

I said that the Gladiator at the begining of the thread was K8043:E. I have now discovered that it is in fact N5897:E. This is the same aircraft as the one in my last post where the pilot is being handed an instrument. N5897 came from 247 Squadron where it had been stationed at Roborough during the Battle of Britain. It crashed in March 1943 and the code E then went to K8043.

I was so near to twigging that earlier today but the connections didn't spark. The pic on p.46 of the tail and rear fuselage of N5897 in the MM book shows exactly the same pattern of wear on the fuselage roundel as your pic today of "E" (post 17) and the Braithwaite pic in post 1. It's a rare luxury to have 3 pics of the same WW2 aircraft.

[SoGlad]

That's the picture that made me realise my mistake, but I was looking at the one in 'Gloster Gladiator' by Francis K. Mason. It must have been at the same shoot as the one I posted earlier, what a great model scene this would make.

[Seahawk]

That's the picture that made me realise my mistake, but I was looking at the one in 'Gloster Gladiator' by Francis K. Mason. It must have been at the same shoot as the one I posted earlier, what a great model scene this would make.

Note that, unlike N2309:B, N5897 doesn't have a radio mast at all, just a fairlead just aft of the open canopy.

I love the way the "scientific apparatus" looks like stuff they'd borrowed off the wall of the officers' mess.

[SoGlad]

I have dug out and read everything I had about Met Flight Gladiators and have found the following.

This is what Denys Braithwaite says about meteorological THUM (temperature and humidity) flights in Gladiators in ‘Target for Tonight’.

“THUM was flown in a Gloucester (sic) Gladiator three times each day…The flight was made to a score of different levels, accurately reached by use of a barograph placed between the pilots feet….Then the pilot would read off the wet and dry bulb readings on a big thermometer strapped out on the wing struts and record them on a form strapped to his knee.”

“Once in the aircraft, I was quickly strapped in, an airman handed me my recording pad to strap to my right thigh….The last checks followed including in this case the spotlight that I had to rely on to illuminate the huge wet and dry bulb thermometer that was strapped to the struts at the end of the starboard wing and the special barograph mounted on the floor between my legs…”

“I throttled right back, kept accurate height and at a speed exactly 100 mph I started the stopwatch and turned the spotlight on to the thermometer on the wing.”

In ‘What Were They Like To Fly’ by Squadron Leader D.H. Clarke DFC. AFC. there is this about a Met flight Gauntlet at Mildenhall before the war in Chapter 7 ‘Blind Fear’.

“Crude…a 2’ long thermometer on the starboard inner strut. Every 50 millibars of reducing pressure the pilot was expected to record temperature in cloud, we had a three-cell torch.’

And in Chapter 32 ‘Last of the Mohicans’ about flying a Gladiator in Africa.

“There was a dry bulb thermometer on the outer interplane strut.”

I also looked into the background of the photographs that I posted of the rear and side of N5897 and the Gladiator over the car. They are all Air Ministry pictures taken in December 1942 - January 1943 at 521 Squadron Bircham Newton, by the same photographer, Flying Officer J. R. Watkins, a Royal Air Force official photographer

The one with the aerial as clothes line is captioned,

“A meteorological pilot, Flying Officer J B Gordon of No. 521 Squadron RAF, prepares to don the many layers of clothes he wears for high-altitude weather flying, which are hanging from the radio aerial of his Gloster Gladiator Mark II, N5897 'E', at Bircham Newton, Norfolk. A ground crewman stands by with Gordon's SD jacket and parachute. A psychrometer and an aneroid barometer, which will be attached to the aircraft for the THUM (Temperature and Humidity) flight, have been placed on the elevator.”

The picture where the pilot is being handed an instrument: -

“A ground crewman hands a psychrometer to meteorological pilot, Flying Officer J B Gordon of No. 521 Squadron RAF in Gloster Gladiator Mark II, N5897 'E', before he departs on a high-altitude THUM (Temperature and Humidity) flight from Bircham Newton, Norfolk.”

The plane over car picture:-

“A Gloster Gladiator of No. 521 Squadron RAF takes off over a four-door saloon car at Bircham Newton, Norfolk.”

I think it’s safe to assume that the plane over the car is also N5897, now with added thermometer.

I have reached these conclusions about the meteorological equipment on Met Flight Gladiators.

• They would all have had a 2 foot long wet and dry bulb thermometer attached to the rear starboard interplane strut (psychrometer is the technical term for a wet and dry bulb thermometer). This would be strapped on just before take off and removed after landing.

• The instrument that is being handed to F/O Gordon is the thermometer. I know it should be strapped to the strut but this is a publicity photograph and the photographer probably thought it looked more impressive. (Although the crewman might be showing it to the pilot to make sure it was the one he’d chosen, like they do with wine in a restaurant)

• The square instrument with a round dial on the tail plane of N5897 is the barometer that goes between the pilot’s feet. (It’s also in the crewman’s other hand as he gives F/O Gordon the thermometer)

• Sq/L Clarke talks about a ‘3 cell torch’ in his Gauntlet, Sq/L Braithwaite about a spotlight in his Gladiator flight. I don’t know if there was a spotlight fitted to the Gladiators starboard fuselage side, I have never seen any evidence of one. It isn’t in the cockpit or it would be seen in the ‘F/O Gordon being handed an instrument’ picture. Perhaps that is what the mysterious circle on the drawing in the MM book is meant to be, but on the wrong side. On the other hand, there is a distinct ‘blob’ at the top of the thermometer on the ‘plane over car’ picture, could that be a round spotlight attached above it? I don’t know.

• Some had aerials beneath the rear fuselage, N2309 and N5902 for example, some didn’t.

• Some had tall thick aerials behind the cockpit, N2309 and N5592 for example, some didn’t.

I would model the Roden kit as N2309 with a tall aerial, lower fuselage aerial and a thermometer strapped to the rear starboard interplane strut and a barometer on the cockpit floor. I’d paint it Dark Earth/Dark Green/Sky, with a sky ‘B’ code.

Finally, looking for a photograph of “our old N5601” quoted by Denys Braithwaite in Post 1, I found that there never was a Gladiator N5601, the production batches have a gap between N5594 and N5620.

The one thing I can’t find is my Roden Met Flight Gladiator kit!

Edited April 28, 2011 by SoGlad

[Ed Russell]

I am So Glad you found this forum (sorry....). Excellent information. You may well be right about the 'blob' on the end of the thermometer being a lamp of some sort - it does fit in with the sense of Braithwaite's text.

I wonder if "N5601" is a typo for N5621 which was with that unit? Keep looking for that kit! There are Work in Progress and Ready for Inspection sections where I hope to see it!

I found that there never was a Gladiator N5601, the production batches have a gap between N5594 and N5620.

The one thing I can’t find is my Roden Met Flight Gladiator kit!

[SoGlad]

I think I may have found out about the last bit of meteorological equipment on Met Flight Gladiators, the spotlight. This is a picture of K7927, taken while it was being used for filming 'Signed With Their Honour' in 1943. The picture also appears in Alex Crawford's MM book 'Gloster Gladiator Vol I' on page 255. K7927 came from 1402 Met Flight and you can clearly see a small bracket fixed to the rear strut in front of the canopy. just the place to put a spotlight don't you think and far simpler to wire in than if it was attached to the thermometer. Apparently Gladiators were sent to Marshalls at Cambridge for fitting meteorological equipment and this may have been part of that conversion, I haven't seen it on any other non-met Gladiator. Incidently, K7927 collided with K8045 while filming and both crashed, the pilots escaped by parachute.