1:72 VC-10

[bzn20]

The VC-10 C.MK 1 were built with and delivered with refueling probes.At some point maybe when they were at Fairford (before Brize re opened in 1967) or Brize.I dont know how many were delivered with probes,I'm sure not all of them were though.

Transport Command sent a signal to remove the refueling probes and return to stores (RTS) months,maybe a year another signal was issued to scrap the probes.All the plumbing and valves were still insitu BTW.Fast forward to 1982.The Falklands take back/operation corporate was on.Air Support Command or Strike Command (I forget who we came under at that time) sent a signal to refit the inflight refueling probes.A friend of mine was the duty Eng.Opps Controller when this came in.He'd been on the team that removed the original probes on his 1st posting at Brize.He went looking for these things and found out they'd been scapped years earlier.He eventually got hold of the scrapping signal and 'phoned the officer at command who sent the refit order.Eventually he got through explaining what had happened and that was it.No probes.

The VC-10 flights had to stage through Dakar.Senegal to refuel so the Fuel reserves at ascension werent affected.whether that was anything to do with the probe problem,i dont know.We'll never know what the intended missions with in flight refueling were.

Another great waste of tax payers money.If they had got the probes you can only imagine the problems taking a 'ten out the fleet for crew inflight refuel training.We were going flat out as it was supplying Ascension with fresh food and other "things", with a maximum 11 VC-10 aircraft at any one time.Two hangared on base 3 and base 2 servicings.

In about 90/91 i was working on 'ten fuel leaks .When they filled the thing up above high level float switches to check the repairs plus anything new dripping,they had fuel dripping from the cabin/cockpit roof area.Nobody knew what the hell was going on.I went on board and told them about the original plumbing for the probes and thats what was leaking.It was "ancient"VC-10 info. you either knew the kites history or didnt.Nobody had ever issued SP's or servicing info in any AP and the seals had perrished/split/cracked,whatever.the whole thing had been forgotten about.Dangerous wasnt the word.Isnt that what happened with that Nimrod over A/stan?After that an SSP was issued to service/inspect the system fleet wide (C.MK1 only).

Edited December 7, 2012 by bzn20

[Glen]

The probe was a great help during crosswind landings as it made it very obvious which way to point. If there was a crosswind and you were flapless though it could obscure the runway if the wind was from the wrong direction which made a visual approach a bit of a guessing game! The first time I got struck by lightning was on the refuelling probe right in front of the windscreen - certainly made me jump!

Cheers

Glen

[xffw45343tg]

I hope Airfix pick your brain Glen when they come to develop their 1:72 kit.

Reckon I'll be modelling mine without the probe though!

Kirk

[Kev1n]

...when they come to develop their 1:72 kit.

Kirk

and you really think Airfix are going to?

[xffw45343tg]

Some people believe in Father Christmas; some in The Tooth Fairy. You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.

None of these stand to make a profit from distributing presents, exchanging teeth for cash or offering an afterlife.

So, yes, I'm still with Airfix being in the business of making stuff for money.

[pigsty]

.So, yes, I'm still with Airfix being in the business of making stuff for money.

- but not pishing it away. The new Javelin will be either £40 or £50 and the new Merlin is over £50. A 1/72 VC10 would dwarf either. I've revised my own internal estimate upwards - I reckon £100 is the least we could expect for this, and for that we'd be lucky to get a choice of decals. You only need to look through a selection of threads complaining about prices to see that the difference between "ooh yes please" and actual sales would be a great yawning gulf. I can't see anyone putting in the investment with such a shaky prospect of sales.

[thx6667]

You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.

If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

[xffw45343tg]

- but not pishing it away. The new Javelin will be either £40 or £50 and the new Merlin is over £50. A 1/72 VC10 would dwarf either. I've revised my own internal estimate upwards - I reckon £100 is the least we could expect for this, and for that we'd be lucky to get a choice of decals. You only need to look through a selection of threads complaining about prices to see that the difference between "ooh yes please" and actual sales would be a great yawning gulf. I can't see anyone putting in the investment with such a shaky prospect of sales.

Hmmm.

So I wonder what ever possessed them to make a 1:72 Sentry? Charitable donations low that year, maybe.

1:72 Concorde was clearly a no-brainer. (Sad to say that seems to have been the watch-word for the project but I simultaneously digress and undermine my own point.)

I'll buy one when it comes out.

[xffw45343tg]

If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

You can choose from phantom fears or kindness that can kill.

(Actually I thought the opening line the most apt for this thread but I'm saving it...)

[pigsty]

So I wonder what ever possessed them to make a 1:72 Sentry? Charitable donations low that year, maybe.

How old is the Heller/Airfix E-3, though, and what was the market like back then? And what level of sophistication did that kit have, compared with what we demand today and then refuse to pay for?

For another example, try the Nimrod, which now changes hands for £16 because of a combination of over-production and - crucially - lack of desire on the part of the buying public. All this talk of how every bugger who flew in a VC10 wants to build one is, I'm afraid, a little optimistic. Much as I'd like one myself, the economics are against it and no amount of positive vibes will change that.

[Giorgio N]

Hmmm.

So I wonder what ever possessed them to make a 1:72 Sentry? Charitable donations low that year, maybe.

1:72 Concorde was clearly a no-brainer. (Sad to say that seems to have been the watch-word for the project but I simultaneously digress and undermine my own point.)

I'll buy one when it comes out.

The Sentry was not an original Airfix kit, it was a Heller product and was the result of Heller trying to get more mileage out of their 707 kit. It was very cheap for airfix to add the parts needed for a UK Sentry.. especially as these parts were the same needed for the French version marketed by Heller at the same time, so doubling the potential market.

Airfix would have likely never done a brand new Sentry if they had no access to the Heller tool. And a Sentry is an aircraft with a potential market that is larger than that of a VC-10.

[xffw45343tg]

Much as I'd like one myself, the economics are against it and no amount of positive vibes will change that.

Would you buy one at, say, £60?

[pigsty]

Would you buy one at, say, £60?

I might, and I'd let my pet unicorn play with it, too. I don't think that's a realistic price. Unless you know something ... ?

Edited March 7, 2013 by pigsty

[xffw45343tg]

The Sentry was not an original Airfix kit, it was a Heller product and was the result of Heller trying to get more mileage out of their 707 kit. It was very cheap for airfix to add the parts needed for a UK Sentry.. especially as these parts were the same needed for the French version marketed by Heller at the same time, so doubling the potential market.

Thanks Gorgio. I didn't know that.

Airfix would have likely never done a brand new Sentry if they had no access to the Heller tool. And a Sentry is an aircraft with a potential market that is larger than that of a VC-10.

There's a couple of bold statements. Care to substantiate them at all?

Of course, I should throw the same question to you as I did to Seàn; would you buy a 1:72 VC-10 at, say, £60?

[kev67]

I certainly would buy a 1/72 VC10, I know in my heart that Airfix probably would not do it, but one can only dream, I have the Anigrand kit though, although I am not a fan of their models it doesn't look to bad,

I wonder if BPK could do one, similar on how they have done the 737

[Dave Fleming]

Hmmm.

So I wonder what ever possessed them to make a 1:72 Sentry? Charitable donations low that year, maybe.

1:72 Concorde was clearly a no-brainer. (Sad to say that seems to have been the watch-word for the project but I simultaneously digress and undermine my own point.)

I'll buy one when it comes out.

Concorde was a Heller originated kit as well

[tomprobert]

I certainly would buy a 1/72 VC10, I know in my heart that Airfix probably would not do it, but one can only dream, I have the Anigrand kit though, although I am not a fan of their models it doesn't look to bad,

I wonder if BPK could do one, similar on how they have done the 737

I think the best VC-10 in 1/72nd is the Airways Vac.

Hard to get hold of, but to my eye it looks every inch a VC-10.

[xffw45343tg]

Concorde was a Heller originated kit as well

Damn! There goes my precedent argument!

[xffw45343tg]

...Hard to get hold of...

Hmm. They get snapped up on ebay for big money. It's almost like there's a market demand for a decent big VC-10...

Nah. Nobody wants one. It'll never happen. It would cost a gazillion pounds. Aging 1:144 ones don't really sell at twice their original price. Not a Spitfire. Etc.

[Giorgio N]

There's a couple of bold statements. Care to substantiate them at all?

Actually only one bold statement, the one relative to the relative market of the Sentry, statement that is simply explained: the Sentry is an aircraft that while produced in similar numbers to the VC10 (68 vs. 54), has been way more visible in a number of countries. It's used by the USAF, NATO, UK, France, therefore can have potential buyers in more than one country, while the VC10 is practically unknown outside the UK. Support types are not the best selling subjects, large (and therefore expensive) kits are not the best selling ones, a large kit of a little known support type used by a foreign air force ends up being quite down the priorities of most modellers. The market for a VC10 is limited to the UK, the market for a Sentry is wider, with the availability of a star 'n bars option being quite interesting for many.

The VC-10 of course would also attract some modellers interested in airliners, but how large is the market for 1/72 airliners ? The Heller 707 has been available on and off while the Sentry has been available for much longer, it tells me that the military version had more success. And that was a 707, a subject that is potentially way more interesting worldwide than a VC10.

My other statement used the word "likely", so it's not as bold a statement as the previous... considering the kind of kits issued in those days by Airfix, it's very unlikely they would have done a brand new Sentry. Having the tool in their hands it of course made a lot of sense to issue this, as all the parts were already done and they just needed to add RAF decals. It was Heller who took a bold move in earlier days doing the 707 (and other civilian types, the constellation and the DC-6), Heller who already had a reputation for unusual subjects (think the Saab Safir...). The Sentry was a logical consequence for Heller and the rebox with RAF decal a logical consequence after the two companies ended under the same ownership.

Would I buy a VC10 kit for £60 ? Probably yes, but this is not the matter. The matter is that for a single VC10 I might buy, I have already bought 20 F-14 (of which several 1/48 ones), 40 Spitfires and so on. At the end of my life, it's likely that I might end up with 100 spitfires, 50 tomcats, 20 phantoms and 1 VC10.

And more: would I buy a VC10 for £60 ? Probably. Would I buy a VC10 for £60 or a Comet for £60 ? Maybe I'd get the Comet over the VC10. Would I get the Comet or a B-1 at the same price ? Hmmmm.... the B-1 might win.....

And I consider myself as a modeller with a strong interest in British post war aircrafts ! Imagine what other modellers would do....

If I had to invest my own money in a new tool for a large injected plastic kit, a VC10 would come after many others: new 1/48 combat types, a retooled vulcan, 1/48 lancaster and halifax....

IMHO, a VC10 sure deserves a good kit, but I can see a similar kit being better commercially for the cottage industry rather than mainstream manufacturers. There's a reason why certain subjects have never been done in injected plastic while they have appeared a number of times in other media.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Giorgio N

[thx6667]

but how large is the market for 1/72 airliners ?

I would suggest much smaller than say the market for WWII fighters or cold war jets in 1/72 or 1/48. There's a simple equation in all this - in order to bring the price down you have to be sure that you'll sell in volume to cover costs. If the market is limited then you have to raise the retail price to cover the costs of a smaller run. Factor into that the fact that in order to keep costs down you may have to limit it to a certain version, at which point forums would be awash with "oh why didn't they do they YYZ version..." and interest drops because one or two factions didn't get the version they wanted and don't want to go down the route of converting or buying expensive aftermarket on top of what could be an already expensive kit.

Me personally, I don't think there's a market for one in 1/72, its simply too large a subject with a niche interest and thus too much of a commercial risk, while there's plenty of other things that could be done and which would be more commercially sound.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Jonathan Mock

[kev67]

I certainly would not rule out a 1/72 VC10, the simple reason is technology is changing, I have seen how 3D printing is getting better and better and who's to say in 5-10 years time the cost of 3D printing will be allot cheaper and better and no need for expensive metal moulds, all you need is to upload your 3D image on to the printer and hey presto, and even if you have no printer I can see shops opening up for your own needs that can be transfered by a USB pen or even emailed to them

Edited March 7, 2013 by kev67

[Neil Lambess]

theres already two 1/72 VC10s out there , not sure we need a third.....

(Magna and Anigrand )

[kev67]

theres already two 1/72 VC10s out there , not sure we need a third.....

(Magna and Anigrand )

Problem with these both are resin, and the Magna one is just a rip off of the Airways vacform kit even has the same faults

[xffw45343tg]

theres already two 1/72 VC10s out there , not sure we need a third.....

(Magna and Anigrand )

Agreed, but it would be nice to have one that is VC-10 shaped.