captured Heinkel 115

[JWM]

Kjetil, many thanks for answer However I do think that on photo it is visible, that at some stage the national insignia was horizontal and paited on top pf fin, in very unusual position, and then it was overpainted...Anyway - thanks again!

Cheers

Jerzy-Wojtek

P.S.

I am seriously temptated to do "52' in this scheme...

[Kjetil Åkra]

No problem, JWM. My pleasure.

I have an earlier phoot of F.52 which the profile i posted is based on, and there the fin does not have any national insignia horisontally across the tailfin. That would be totally non-standard as well and as the rudder flag is mostly ,overpainted, I doubt they would compromise the ground camouflage with painting another brightly colour band across the fin.

If you decide to model F.52 in this scheme let me know and I'll tell you about the modification that is necessary to make a Norwegian He 115 and also post the other photos and upper surface scheme. I think you'll be the first to do this scheme, actually, I have not seen a model so painted before.

Best regards,

Kjetil

[leyreynolds]

I would be interested in the modifications to the kit for a Norwegian He 115 too please.

[JWM]

Hi Kietill,

Actually in the yesterday evening I started He-115 I have model by Revell - not Matchbox one but Frog mould. I see errors in both moulds - some people say that Frog is more accurate, some that Matchbox... So your advices will be very appreciated.

I am going to use Monogram Do 17Z propellers (which remains unused after conversion of Do 17 Z to to Do-215, which I did some +10 years ago) .

Best regards

Jerzy-Wojtek

[Vingtor]

The paint stocks would in all likelihood have been distributed at the various bases, including Flatøy ...

If I recall correctly, this is not according to documents found by Mr. K.E. Hagen. I will have to check this, though.

Another issue regarding your nice profile. Did they really paint the floats beneath the water line? It does not sound very logical to me. Being a field job, they must either have lifted the aircraft from the water to do this, or dipped the paint brushes into the sea water. Both seems unlikely to me, and the camouflage effect would have been non-existent.

Nils

[TonyTiger66]

This shot shows one of them at Woodhaven.

http://www.theinvergordonarchive.org/picture/number1424.asp

I was fascinated to read this, many thanks for the link Dave.Don't want to hijack the thread but; I used to live in Helensburgh and would never have dreamed clandestine missions involving a Heinkel HE_115 would have taken place from there.

It is more well known for the WWII Clyde naval base (now Faslane submarine base), where during WWII, my maternal grandfather departed for at the time, secret 'Russian Convoys'.

Now my appetite is whetted as I have one in the stash - I'll have to find details of that aircraft out. What an incredible place Britmodeller is! Looks like we'll both be building one JD!

Best regards

Tony

[TonyTiger66]

No problem, JWM. My pleasure.

I have an earlier phoot of F.52 which the profile i posted is based on, and there the fin does not have any national insignia horisontally across the tailfin. That would be totally non-standard as well and as the rudder flag is mostly ,overpainted, I doubt they would compromise the ground camouflage with painting another brightly colour band across the fin.

If you decide to model F.52 in this scheme let me know and I'll tell you about the modification that is necessary to make a Norwegian He 115 and also post the other photos and upper surface scheme. I think you'll be the first to do this scheme, actually, I have not seen a model so painted before.

Best regards,

Kjetil

Hi Kjetil,

Just in addition to the above, I would greatly appreciate it if you or anyone else, has information on the HE-115(s) in Helensburgh in WWII?

Best regards

Tony

[Kjetil Åkra]

Ok. Here´s some info on how to make a He 115 N (Norwegian he 115).

I see you are going to use the 1/72 kit of Revell. Of course, both this and the Matchbox one are old and not entirely accurate in dimensions or panel lines, but it will take a lot of work to make them more accurate in that regard, so here I´ll just show you how to convert them to the Norwegian configuration.

The He 115 N and S differed from the Geman ones in their antenna arrangement, as seen below. The Scandinavian ones ha a D/F loop which must be added and the antenna moved backwards.

Secondly, the He 115 N had a unique nose cupola which was fixed and shorter and had a larger aperture for the planned fitment of a 20 mm Oerlikon cannon (which was never done, unfortunately). Here are some sketches of the two, the Luftwaffe/Swedish version first.

Here are the two seen from the side, scale drawings by Erik Pilawskii. Also note that the Norwegian machines did not have the structures under the nose associated with the Lotfe bomb sight as they used another type. And of course the defensive guns need to be changed from the Luftwaffe MG 15s to the Colt-Browning M1929 air cooled machine gun used by the Norwegians.

The He 115 Ns seem to be a hybrid variant consisting of He 115 A fuselages with He 115 B tails. As such there are a few differences in the fuselage compared to the Luftwaffe versions (I am not sure if these panel lines/hacthes are even on the model, but I include them anyways). First some photos showing the two hatches characteristic of the He 115 A/N.

The hatch/pane lines immediately behind the torpedo bay also differed. Below the Luftwaffe He 115 is on top, the Norwegian condition below:

One final exterior difference is the tube for the trailing antenna on the starboard side, behind the ladder. This was of a unique design on Swedish and Nowergian machines. Here is a close up of the thing, I am afraid you must scratchbuild it.

Also, I think the elevator and rudder balance horns need a bit of reworking on the model. Here is a accurate outline of the elevator horns, as far as I know the rudder ones are identical:

We can discuss colours when you get that far, but for interior I would suggest the use of either RLM 02 or 62, we have seen both in the He 115 B W.Nr. 2398, the latter being overpainted by the former, so it is possible Heinkel used old stocks of RLM 62 on the interior on the He 115 Ns as well.

I don´t know how much detail you want to add on the interior, if you want to super detail I have images of the entire crew compartments from German aircraft, just let me know!

Hope this helps a little,

Kjetil

[Kjetil Åkra]

TonyTigder66, I am afraid that no clandestine mission were actually flown with the Heinkels from the Scottish bases, only from Malta. And as far as I know, the main association of the He 115 with Helensburg were just after the four had arrived from Nroway and the fact that F.64 (an ex-Luftwaffe machine, i.e. not one of the Noowegian ones) were tested from there.

But still, you can make a very interesting He 115 from Helensburgh. There were actually plans to sue them for torpedo operations as well as clandestine missions along the Norwegian coast, but these plans, along with the aircraft, were scrapped in late 1942!

Regards,

Kjetil

[TonyTiger66]

TonyTigder66, I am afraid that no clandestine mission were actually flown with the Heinkels from the Scottish bases, only from Malta. And as far as I know, the main association of the He 115 with Helensburg were just after the four had arrived from Nroway and the fact that F.64 (an ex-Luftwaffe machine, i.e. not one of the Noowegian ones) were tested from there.

But still, you can make a very interesting He 115 from Helensburgh. There were actually plans to sue them for torpedo operations as well as clandestine missions along the Norwegian coast, but these plans, along with the aircraft, were scrapped in late 1942!

Regards,

Kjetil

Thank you Kjetil,

I was originally inspired by this quote:

"After leaving Invergordon, the He115s went to Helensburgh. Two of the aircraft were subsequently used for clandestine operations to Norway and Germany. Two other He115s went to Malta for similar missions. The Norwegian sorties involved transporting Norwegian resistance and supplies to and from Norway. Later the 'Shetland Bus' fishing boats from Shetland did similar work."

From this web origin:

http://www.theinvergordonarchive.org/picture/number1424.asp

Is it possible this is erroneous?

I don't mind if they didn't fly missions, although that link seems to suggest they did, I'm just interested in which (two it seems) were based there. It's fascinating stuff!

Best regards

Tony

[Kjetil Åkra]

Yes, I am afraid the stories related there are erroneous. No clandestine mission were flown over Norway or Germany. We know that a certain individual (no need to mention names) is often quoted has having participated in such missions, but the stories are not correct, as has been shown by one of my co-authors. More on this will come in the book.

The ones stationed at Woodhaven, the seaplane basedepcited in the link in your last post, was BV184 and Bv186. No photos are known of the former but the latter was extensively photographed and it seems all photos of a he 115 n in RAF camouflage and markings are of this aircraft. It would be the best one to model, but if you do, there are many further modifications that needs to be implemented in addition to the Norwegian mods outlined above. Again, I´ll be happy to provide you with a list, if needed.

Kjetil

[TonyTiger66]

Yes, I am afraid the stories related there are erroneous. No clandestine mission were flown over Norway or Germany. We know that a certain individual (no need to mention names) is often quoted has having participated in such missions, but the stories are not correct, as has been shown by one of my co-authors. More on this will come in the book.

The ones stationed at Woodhaven, the seaplane basedepcited in the link in your last post, was BV184 and Bv186. No photos are known of the former but the latter was extensively photographed and it seems all photos of a he 115 n in RAF camouflage and markings are of this aircraft. It would be the best one to model, but if you do, there are many further modifications that needs to be implemented in addition to the Norwegian mods outlined above. Again, I´ll be happy to provide you with a list, if needed.

Kjetil

Thank you Kjetil that is very kind

I know that war stories can be 'inflated'.

These men, some, in my case, we loved, went through a hell we can 'almost' imagine. I guess we make the models out of respect of very incredibly brave but quiet men

All info on how to make an (as far as we can manage ) model would be very greatly appreciated.

Tony

[JWM]

Many thanks Kjetil for details! - some of them I noticed already (DF loop, lack of large bomb sight on nose) but some I overlooked (small hatches, bottom hatch/panel lines, different MG and different front glass).

Regards

Jerzy-Wojtek

[leyreynolds]

Yes thanks for the details - they'll be very useful.

[Kjetil Åkra]

My pleasure, all.

I'll post some more later on how to make BV186..

Kjetil

[Dave Fleming]

Having long had an interest in these He115s, I was quite excited when the book Kjetil refers to was published, but even although it had new photos and seeming information, even then something didn't scan as the number of aircraft that were available and the numbers that were claimed to have been flown/destroyed didn't add up.

Subsequent conversations with Norwegian friends revealed that there was much doubt amongst the Norwegian aviation community about this, and latterly the reports are discredited.

I also understand that some of the previously classified files relating to these aricraft are now available at the National Archives.

As Kjetil will know, a comprehensive series of pictures showing the break up of BV186 at Woodhaven was published on Facebook a few years back by a relative of one of the Norwegians involved with 330Sqn, including a clear photo of the nose art. Previously, only a couple of those had been published. Interestingly, most of the buildings shown at Woodhaven are still in existence!

There are a few other pictures showing it at various oocations around Scotland - Invergordon and Luce Bay for example.

This is the famous flying shot

Regarding Helensburgh/Rhu, in addition to the Heinkel, an ex-Norwegian Ar196 (which had been captured by the Norwegians) was also flown there, and in fact crashed in the Gareloch. My sister lives in Rhu, and I have often stood at the marina wondering what it wa slike then. This pic is from War Prizes:

Edited June 22, 2016 by Dave Fleming

[Dave Fleming]

From memory the biggest difference between the B and C variants was the shape of the rear enigne cowl?

[Kjetil Åkra]

Thanks for your interesting post, Dave.

I have been in contact with the daughter of there man who took all those photos showing the break up of BV186 and most of what we have been able to find out or deduce about tis plane is thanks to her. I plan to publish all of the photos in my book (having her permission of course) as it is so rare to have so many images from such an event.

In any case, here is a drawing showing the main points of what needs to be done to convert a model to BV186.

Please note that this is an excerpt from my manuscript and has not been proof read and is subject to change. However, the contents of what it says should be sound. There also seem to be some differences in thew wing, i.e. fitment of a new hatch possible associated with the installation of four (not eight) Brownings, two in each wing, but details are much more sketchy here. Forget any references to a crew position in each float, as has sometimes been mentioned. No evidence of that has ever been found.

Regarding the difference between the He 115 B and C this is found in the nose, i.e. the installation of the 15 mm MG 151 in the C-version. The rear cowl shape you think of was associated with the installation of the rear-firing MG 17 in each engine nacelle and this was retrofitted to most Bs and Cs and even at least one A.

Best regards,

Kjetil.

[TonyTiger66]

Yes, I am afraid the stories related there are erroneous. No clandestine mission were flown over Norway or Germany. We know that a certain individual (no need to mention names) is often quoted has having participated in such missions, but the stories are not correct, as has been shown by one of my co-authors. More on this will come in the book.

The ones stationed at Woodhaven, the seaplane basedepcited in the link in your last post, was BV184 and Bv186. No photos are known of the former but the latter was extensively photographed and it seems all photos of a he 115 n in RAF camouflage and markings are of this aircraft. It would be the best one to model, but if you do, there are many further modifications that needs to be implemented in addition to the Norwegian mods outlined above. Again, I´ll be happy to provide you with a list, if needed.

Kjetil

Thanks Kjetil that's really kind This book is going to be quite fascinating. I also would like to make one of the HE-115's flown to Spain during the Spanish Civil War. It looks like I need to buy a couple more kits

All best regards

Tony

[Kjetil Åkra]

Glad you found it useful, Tony.

If you are making a Spanish civil war He 115, remember there were only two and the belonged to the A-0 Nullserien.

I have the Revell-kit myself but knowing the He 115 quite intimately now, I cannot bring myself to a lengthy conversion and modification process for that kit. I have been toying with the idea of suggesting to Airfix or Revell that a new-mould 1/72 He 115 ought to have good market possibilities, but I am unsure where to go with such a suggestion. If any of those companies would do one, I am very anxious to make our research available to them so we can have all variants and the most accurate kit possible.

What do you think, would´t a modern 1/72 kit of the He 115 have potential? I certainly think so, there are not many aircraft for which you can provide decals for operational RAF, Luftwaffe, Norwegian, Finnish, Spanish and Swedish machines!

Kjetil

[TonyTiger66]

Hi Kjetil,

It would be a superb subject for a new mould kit. I did have a vac-form kit a long time ago, I think it may have been German?

It gave options for A-0 series and so on.

Probably a company like Special Hobby may be more likely to do it. For example they've done the Vickers Vildebeeste floatplane, the Northrop N3PB and Douglas P70, the Lickheed Lodestar. These are similar sized or type/era of aircraft.

Sometimes when Special Hobby have a success, Revell or Italeri take it over.

This thread shows what a long serving and fascinating subject it is, from Norway all the way south to Malta !

Best regards

Tony

[JWM]

I addition to what Tony wrote above - SH made He-115 in 1/48, so it is likely, that they are thinking on 1/72 kit as well. At least - there is a hope...

J-W

EDIT:

P.S - Just to share with some observation - on this photo:

http://elfnet.hu/images/haditechnika/repulok/heinkelhe115/heinkel_he115_levegoben.jpg

a German He 115 has overpainted middle of canopy!

Edited June 26, 2016 by JWM

[Vingtor]

A few years ago, I came over an extensive etched metal detail set for the 1/72 scale He 115 at SMW, Telford. I don't remember whether it was intended for the Matchbox or the Revell kit, nor the manufacturer. Unfortunately I did not purchase it, and I have not seen it since.

Nils

[gruffy]

Hi

True, I find most of the SD aircraft/flights interesting, they used to be fascinating finds in the various station or squadron records at the PRO/NA, The main one I remember either 1O Sqn Raaf or Raf mountbatten log mentioned the aircraft. no photos thou'

cheers

Jerry

Mountbatten ? That's a stones throw from me. I do like the idea of sd aircraft down in Plymouth.

My grandfather was heavy involved in intelligence and special duties in the med (Malta and Egypt )but a lot of what he was involved in wont be revealed until 2045. He did say there was a lot of weird stuff going on in this theatre but wouldn't say anymore.

[JWM]

Hi

I am trying to do Norwegian "52" He-115 in April 1940 colours. I have some doubts - and therefore questions. Germans propellers during WWII were painted dark green, earalier they were sometime in bare metal. How it was in case of export He-115? On Swedish and Finish (ex-Norwegian) props are dark, i found one photo in net of rather not perfect quality which suggests ligh fronts (bare matal or grey) of props. Anybody knows something on this - what colour was on Norwegian He-115 in 1940? 

Second question is about right side of canopy - namely rear gunner windscreen. In Revell kit there is opening for gun. I think that at one photo of Finish one I see this opening. Was it there? I will appreciete any comment/answer...

Best regards

Jerzy-Wojtek