27 Sqn Blenheims at Singapore IN COLOUR!

[Nick Millman]

Funny you should say that. I thought that a few other RAF colours were missing from the repertoire so far so I spent the morning "correcting" and "improving" the images to show the true colours correctly - based of course on the orders of my old tutor which were usually - "Remove yourself from my classroom boy!". Seriously though, I noticed that the Sergeant's legs were far too pally-wally for someone to shout "Get yer knees brown!" at, so I corrected them to the correct lobster pink shade, bearing in mind also the correct position of the sun in the photograph and the correct prevailing weather conditions. After muttering a few correct incantations over the computer screen I'm confident I've got it correct now.

I just can't make my mind up now whether the corrected undersurfaces are PRU Pink or PRU Mauve but it's definitely one or the other. I'm leaning to the other because the pink is too bright to be the correct off-white shade.

To paraphrase Humpty-Dumpty, "When I correct a photographic image, the colour is just what I want it to be — neither more nor less." Yes indeed.

[The Lazy Builder]

One of the issues I always find interesting about these colour threads is that the human aspect is often forgotten. As someone with a few decades of Service in the RAF stretching back quite a long way what modellers forget is that is that the 'Painters and Dopers', or latterly 'Painters and Finishers' regarded painting aircraft in much the same way as they painted, trucks, 'gennies' or pretty much anything else. The order from Command, the Air Ministry or elsewhere may dictate a colour but exigiencies of the Service would result in a different finish from that proscribed. The further back you go, particularly in times of emergency or war, the more pronounced this is likely to be.

My Dad he was in the 'Mob' for twenty odd years before me, would often comment on colour on my completed models, especially if he had worked on the type. His favourite tale was a line up of Tempest IIs in the Canal Zone in 1946/7. All were painted in the same scheme but his remebrance was that every one of them looked a slightly different colour. He recalled a Beaufighter that had such damaged paint that it changed colour if you ran your hand across the skin or it got rained on.

While I understand the desire of some people for absolute accuracy in completing models, my view (for what it's worth)is that unless you have a paint chips from the actual aircraft most colour is open to conjecture. However, I'd be happy to sit in a pub all day listening to you guys discussing your views.

From a different perspective, is it just me or has anyone else felt that the people in the pictures were more 'real' because they are in colour?

[Nick Millman]

. . . unless you have a paint chips from the actual aircraft most colour is open to conjecture.

Ha ha! If only that were true. Even with paint chips from the actual aircraft the colour would still be (and is!) argued about.

[Daniel Cox]

Variations of Black & White might be an easier discussion.

And yes I prefer colour pics for the real (Hi thereThe Lazy Builder), not a fan of colorized pics though

Cheers,

Daniel.

Edited February 12, 2011 by Daniel Cox

[miduppergunner]

I have long given up trying to interpret colours from photographs. There are far too many influences. But it never fails to provoke discussion. A real old chestnut. I think it was at Oakington they were repainting some Vampires. Some in just "silver" finish did look reasonably uniform but those that were grey/green cammo. did vary considerably. And the "yellow" trainer bands were by far the most varied. But I have also held the view that for modelling purposes the correct "original' shade - if applied - for example would simply not look right. To intense by a long shot.

I know when spraying cars getting a good match - even when using a stock colour - was difficult. So in Wartime when there were many other priorities, it is hardly surprising if little attention was paid to getting a good match?

[Nick Millman]

I have long given up trying to interpret colours from photographs. There are far too many influences. But it never fails to provoke discussion. A real old chestnut. I think it was at Oakington they were repainting some Vampires. Some in just "silver" finish did look reasonably uniform but those that were grey/green cammo. did vary considerably. And the "yellow" trainer bands were by far the most varied. But I have also held the view that for modelling purposes the correct "original' shade - if applied - for example would simply not look right. To intense by a long shot.

I know when spraying cars getting a good match - even when using a stock colour - was difficult. So in Wartime when there were many other priorities, it is hardly surprising if little attention was paid to getting a good match?

Yes, it makes you wonder why some of us even bother. So much easier if paint were just made in tins labelled "green", "brown" and "grey", etc.

[mhaselden]

I noticed that the other photos have a distinct blue cast, so I "fixed" them, by warming them a little, which got rid of most of the cast, and sent the underside, and code letters, into a distinct grey, not blue. Mark's "joke," about Sky Grey, somehow didn't seem so daft, after all, since Singapore is a port, and might well have had stocks for FAA aircraft. I've seen this blue cast, before, only more pronounced, in a photo, where sand/brown Spitfires became sand/green.

Edgar,

I think the largest issue with these photos is their dark appearance rather than any significant blue cast. As noted previously, the shadows are very strong but the colours appear dull as if the photos were taken under complete cloud cover. However, the challenge for determining colour options is not how to interpet these photos as individual items but to examine the body of evidence available about related issues and factors. The only FAA aircraft I'm aware of in Singapore were a few cast-off Albacores. All the other aircraft were owned by the RAF. I think the prospects of Sky Grey being available in large quantity are probably less than Sky Blue. We must also consider whether Sky Grey would also be used for the RAF's Buffalos. Note that when the Dutch Buffalos deployed to Kallang, they had a "pale blue" band applied around the fuselage. This was apparently to get in-line with RAF identification markings (although they probably drew the line at black port undersides for what was intended to be a temporary deployment).

Also, if those aircraft were delivered in early 1940, it's entirely likely that they had no fin flashes, originally, since they were ordered to be added during the fighting in France. Plus, there is increasing (circumstantial) evidence that fighter roundels were brighter shades than those on bombers, so what are the chances that, since the Blenheims were fighter variants, they used the brighter colours for the flashes? I shall hear the shouts of "ludicrous," following me up the M40.

It seems likely the fin flashes were added in India and there are several possible solutions for why bright colours were used. My favourite is still that pre-war bright colours were the only ones available in India (or, more precisely, Risalpur) at that time. Interesting that the fuselage roundel retained the dull colours. I'm still puzzled by the Type A1 roundels on the upper wings shown in the pic in "Bloody Shambles".

Sadly, I'm too far away to chase you up the M40. Actually, we probably could have a chase on a Saturday - a much less likely possibility during the week in my experience!

Cheers,

Mark

Edited February 12, 2011 by mhaselden

[mhaselden]

I found this interesting pic of a 60 Sqn Blenheim MkI, allegedly L4916 (MU-O or U) taken at Dum Dum, India, in late 1940 or early 1941.

The pic was posted on the following website:

Indian Air Force Blog

The photo of "L4916" makes for interesting comparison with the 27 Sqn aircraft we've been studying. It carries the same large fin-flash, although the poor quality makes it impossible to determine whether the same bright red and blue shades were used. Also of interest are the underwing roundels. Notice how the code letters have been painted to overlap the yellow surround of the fuselage roundel.

Edited February 12, 2011 by mhaselden

[Edgar]

Edgar,

Sadly, I'm too far away to chase you up the M40. Actually, we probably could have a chase on a Saturday - a much less likely possibility during the week in my experience!

Cheers,

Mark

Forget it, Mark; it's been made plain that my presence is not wanted, so I suggest you delete anything that I've done. Do you know, I travelled over 300 miles, a few days ago, to find out a little bit more about the Spitfire, colours, etc., but the number, and increasing frequency, of the attacks and sneers, to which I'm being subjected, are really making me re-evaluate whether it's worth the effort and expense.

[Max Headroom]

Re the Indian picture a couple of posts above, there is also a pic of what is described as a 27 Sqn Blenheim. However it has no codes. More importantly it also has no tail flash. This gives credence to the theory that these were as Edgar stated to be ones earmarked for France and thus had them applied in India.

Edgar - I always enjoy the results of your thoughtful and well reasoned contributions on colour and Spitfires as I suspect to most BM'rs. Keep up the good work. Keep the faith!

Trevor

[dragonlanceHR]

Forget it, Mark; it's been made plain that my presence is not wanted, so I suggest you delete anything that I've done. Do you know, I travelled over 300 miles, a few days ago, to find out a little bit more about the Spitfire, colours, etc., but the number, and increasing frequency, of the attacks and sneers, to which I'm being subjected, are really making me re-evaluate whether it's worth the effort and expense.

Edgar,

ignore the attacks and especially the sneers. Your Spitfire research is at least very valuable to me, and I believe there are more modelers like me than the loud attack section. But we're rather quiet.

Sadly, If one wishes to participate in online discussions, one needs to grow a thicker skin.

Regards,

Vedran

[Test Graham]

Mark. There were ex-FAA Sharks and Swordfish at Singapore. I'll have to chase up Bloody Shambles to confirm your Albacores.

[Steven Eisenman]

Forget it, Mark; it's been made plain that my presence is not wanted, so I suggest you delete anything that I've done. Do you know, I travelled over 300 miles, a few days ago, to find out a little bit more about the Spitfire, colours, etc., but the number, and increasing frequency, of the attacks and sneers, to which I'm being subjected, are really making me re-evaluate whether it's worth the effort and expense.

Edgar,

Enough with the satire and kidding. The issue is that some take open disagreement as tantamount to radical Islamic terror. Why has debate become such a dirty word? Stand firm.

[Steven Eisenman]

One of the issues I always find interesting about these colour threads is that the human aspect is often forgotten. As someone with a few decades of Service in the RAF stretching back quite a long way what modellers forget is that is that the 'Painters and Dopers', or latterly 'Painters and Finishers' regarded painting aircraft in much the same way as they painted, trucks, 'gennies' or pretty much anything else. The order from Command, the Air Ministry or elsewhere may dictate a colour but exigiencies of the Service would result in a different finish from that proscribed. The further back you go, particularly in times of emergency or war, the more pronounced this is likely to be.

My Dad he was in the 'Mob' for twenty odd years before me, would often comment on colour on my completed models, especially if he had worked on the type. His favourite tale was a line up of Tempest IIs in the Canal Zone in 1946/7. All were painted in the same scheme but his remebrance was that every one of them looked a slightly different colour. He recalled a Beaufighter that had such damaged paint that it changed colour if you ran your hand across the skin or it got rained on.

While I understand the desire of some people for absolute accuracy in completing models, my view (for what it's worth)is that unless you have a paint chips from the actual aircraft most colour is open to conjecture. However, I'd be happy to sit in a pub all day listening to you guys discussing your views.

From a different perspective, is it just me or has anyone else felt that the people in the pictures were more 'real' because they are in colour?

Two things:

First, are you saying that orders were not followed to the letter of the spec and that oversight was perhaps lax and even worse, the aircraft were actually accepted and used in spite of the paint not quite matching the orders and specs? That is quite heretical. I always imagined a martinet of a Major going up and down with a color chip and the specs sending non-conforming aircraft to second line training duties, in the Orkney Islands no less.

As to modeling matching, I agree that, all things considered, there is no exact match. But there is a limited range withing which the colors fall. I believe here we are attempting to pin down the range, as the pictures are open to question and there are competing colors at issue. The discussion, if nothing else, points out both the ways of approaching an analysis of color and the shortcoming (we just don't know for a fact that is was X or Y).

Thank you for you in put.

Edited February 12, 2011 by Steven Eisenman

[Nick Millman]

I always imagined a martinet of a Major going up and down with a color chip and the specs sending non-conforming aircraft to second line training duties, in the Orkney Islands no less.

For RAF aircraft more probably a Squadron Leader than a Major.

[Test Graham]

No need to postulate anything so extreme - more likely still a Flight Sergeant, or (depending upon period) Warrant Officer or CWO, with the result being some sharp words in the ear, and the instruction to do it again but get it right this time!

[mhaselden]

Mark. There were ex-FAA Sharks and Swordfish at Singapore. I'll have to chase up Bloody Shambles to confirm your Albacores.

Graham,

You're right about the Sharks and the Swordfish but they were still operated by the RAF rather than the FAA and the numbers were very few. The Albacores were spare aircraft dumped in Singapore by the FAA (reason unknown but there were only a few of them). Like every vaguely military aircraft, they were enlisted into service during the campaign. IIRC the only true FAA aircraft in Singapore were a couple of Walruses (Walri?).

Cheers,

Mark

Edited February 13, 2011 by mhaselden

[mhaselden]

Forget it, Mark; it's been made plain that my presence is not wanted, so I suggest you delete anything that I've done. Do you know, I travelled over 300 miles, a few days ago, to find out a little bit more about the Spitfire, colours, etc., but the number, and increasing frequency, of the attacks and sneers, to which I'm being subjected, are really making me re-evaluate whether it's worth the effort and expense.

Edgar,

Don't go, mate, your contributions are always valued by me. I think the issue is MSG and Sky Blue are actually pretty close shades, as evidenced by this Mossie pic (found at http://s1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff394/...cabbb61dd1.jpg) which has "Sky Blue" undersides (he said, sniggering and ducking for cover!).

Cheers,

Mark

Edited February 13, 2011 by mhaselden

[mhaselden]

Re the Indian picture a couple of posts above, there is also a pic of what is described as a 27 Sqn Blenheim. However it has no codes. More importantly it also has no tail flash. This gives credence to the theory that these were as Edgar stated to be ones earmarked for France and thus had them applied in India.

Trevor,

I don't know whether Blenheim MkIs left the factory with fin flashes - my (oft-flawed) memory says they didn't, in which case applying fin flashes in India comes as no surprise. The pic described as 27 Sqn was more likely 60 Sqn but the lack of codes or more positive identification make it difficult/impossible to be certain.

Cheers,

Mark

[Daniel Cox]

Hi All,

For your interest here is a picture of Bristol Blenheim aircraft that I have scanned today from an original photographic print that was issued by the Bristol Aeroplane Company, Limited. Filton House. Identifiable airframes are; L1161, L1164, L1165, L1166, L1167, L1170, L1173, L1174 & L1175.

Copyright Expired/Public Domain

For a larger 5400px x 3900px, 18" x 13" 300ppi image go here; https://picasaweb.google.com/studioCox/RAF#...012766590461586 or alternatively send me a message.

Cheers,

Daniel.

[Ed Russell]

I certainly hope you keep contributing - it seems every colour thread has useful contributions but also the mandatory stuff about nobody knowing about colours, they faded into something else, they were painted any colour and all that rubbish. It's not so difficult to recognise this stuff, skim over it and basically ignore it. It's so obvious that colours fade, colours vary a little when mixed by hand, that black and white photos are not in colour, that colour photos vary over time etc etc that it seems pointless for someone to bring it up in every thread about colour.

Yes, your contributions are appreciated!

Forget it, Mark; it's been made plain that my presence is not wanted, so I suggest you delete anything that I've done. Do you know, I travelled over 300 miles, a few days ago, to find out a little bit more about the Spitfire, colours, etc., but the number, and increasing frequency, of the attacks and sneers, to which I'm being subjected, are really making me re-evaluate whether it's worth the effort and expense.

[miduppergunner]

I certainly hope you keep contributing - it seems every colour thread has useful contributions but also the mandatory stuff about nobody knowing about colours, they faded into something else, they were painted any colour and all that rubbish. It's not so difficult to recognise this stuff, skim over it and basically ignore it. It's so obvious that colours fade, colours vary a little when mixed by hand, that black and white photos are not in colour, that colour photos vary over time etc etc that it seems pointless for someone to bring it up in every thread about colour.

Yes, your contributions are appreciated!

Not sure I understand the significance of that - it is a fact rather than rubbish! But no matter. Yes of course there directives as to what colour aircraft were painted but there is no doubt that on occasions those directives were not adhered to - anymore than was the case with naval vessels or army vehicles - because of all sorts of circumstances and causes. and many in the past have contributed evidence to that effect. So, like it or not, photos are not reliable and therefore what is wrong is saying so. However I do accept that it is not as material in this topic as the very valuable revaluations and observations that have been made by others as well as the very reliable Edgar. Thus this has been one of the most informative topics on this subject for a while.

Certainly (as he knows) Edgar has my respect - his thoroughness is legendary. He does not spout on - but instead invariably drops the pearls of wisdom. So Edgar do not "go", otherwise you will find that you will not only be chased up the M40!!

[JohnMacG]

there were three Albacores used in the Malayan campaign, found at Seletar when Japan attacked - 'Bloody Shambles' Vol.2 has their serial #s - they were allocated to one of the Vildebeest squadrons (again, see B. Shambles) as the 'Albacore Flight'. They participated in the Endau raid, and one survived to be evacuated to Java with the remaining Vildebeests.

[mhaselden]

For your interest here is a picture of Bristol Blenheim aircraft that I have scanned today from an original photographic print that was issued by the Bristol Aeroplane Company, Limited. Filton House. Identifiable airframes are; L1161, L1164, L1165, L1166, L1167, L1170, L1173, L1174 & L1175.

Great pic Daniel with some interesting details, particularly the engine nacelles. I think most of the aircraft used by 27 Sqn were built at Speke (not a million miles from where I grew up, and where I learned to fly). Thanks for sharing.

On a (very slightly) related note, the old 27 Sqn thread included this pic of a Blenheim MkI captured by the Japanese.

Note the extra air intake on the top of the engine cowling. This feature is seen on a number of Blenheims operated in hot climates but not on all. Does anyone know the reason for this modification? Additional cooling would seem sensible but why not modify all aircraft? Was there a batch of engines/airframes that had this feature? Sorry for diverting the thread away from its primary focus but if there's a quick answer to the question I'd love to know what it is.

Cheers,

Mark

[Steven Eisenman]

If anyone wants to try to model the Blenheim, just remembered that the CA Blenheim Mk.I, both original and re-issue have the code PT in gray. The aircraft letter, however is F. The flash is a dull red and the serial would have to be fashioned.

I have one, so may do it for the helluvit.