27 Sqn Blenheims at Singapore IN COLOUR!

[mhaselden]

Graham,

Per my post #139, I also think the pics are rather dark - the shadows are very strong, suggesting direct sunlight but the actual images seem rather dark. I know Nick Millman is/was looking at this issue.

KR

Mark

[Daniel Cox]

A marginal improvement?

Cheers,

Daniel.

Edited February 10, 2011 by Daniel Cox

[Nick Millman]

A marginal improvement?

Cheers,

Daniel.

Yikes! Ithink I can see a colour demarcation between the band and the undersurface colour now! (Thanks for posting - looks much better).

I'm still fascinated by those bright fin flash colours (the blue looks positively French) compared to the fuselage roundels in dark, dark blue and brick red. Put that on a model and all those colour cops supposedly wandering round shows sucking the life blood from the hobby and forcing model shops to close would have a field day.

[Steven Eisenman]

Yikes! Ithink I can see a colour demarcation between the band and the undersurface colour now! (Thanks for posting - looks much better).

I'm still fascinated by those bright fin flash colours (the blue looks positively French) compared to the fuselage roundels in dark, dark blue and brick red. Put that on a model and all those colour cops supposedly wandering round shows sucking the life blood from the hobby and forcing model shops to close would have a field day.

Ok, now that really has me scratching my head. You are correct, the most noticeable issue is the dramatic difference between the fin flash and roundel colours. Logic on that one escapes me. Are they repainted roundels with pre-war flash? I don't think it looks like a French blue.

The underside look a lot lighter. As for the fuselage band, the edges seem sharp (Tamiya Tape?) where as the underside/topside demarcation looks a bit uneven (slight wavy like having been hand painted). Could the difference between band be a matter of when painted? The underside painted then they went back and applied the band. Perhaps a different batch of paint. Also, perhaps there was masking, which created a ridge that gives the impression of difference.

Now about that patch of "light earth" at the top of the fin? I'd love to see if it was on the back of the Blenheim. IIRC, there were instances of some aircraft in a three color top side. How about a DG, DE and LE scheme!!!???

Edited February 10, 2011 by Steven Eisenman

[The original Kit Builder]

Here's another showing an interesting yellow leading edge to the tailplane. Never seen that before!

27 Sqn L66?? Yellow Tailplane Leading Edge

It's also on the fin. It reminds me very much of anti-erosion tape, similar to that which was used on Wessex rotor blades.

[mhaselden]

Now about that patch of "light earth" at the top of the fin? I'd love to see if it was on the back of the Blenheim. IIRC, there were instances of some aircraft in a three color top side. How about a DG, DE and LE scheme!!!???

Steven,

A tri-colour scheme would be really, REALLY interesting but I fear all we're seeing is an area that's been repainted at some point in time in a different shade of Dark Earth. Interestingly, a number of the Blenheims in these pics seem to show the same sort of issue so perhaps there was a fleet-wide modification or repair that resulted in the need to repaint that portion of the fin/rudder. If you look at this colour pic of PT-N (it's very similar to the one of PT-A a couple of posts up) it shows a decent side-view of PT-K which doesn't have any indications of further "Light Earth" markings elsewhere on the fuselage.

L6669, PT-N

Also of note is the the shiny finish on PT-K.

Edited February 10, 2011 by mhaselden

[Steven Eisenman]

Steven,

A tri-colour scheme would be really, REALLY interesting but I fear all we're seeing is an area that's been repainted at some point in time in a different shade of Dark Earth. Interestingly, a number of the Blenheims in these pics seem to show the same sort of issue so perhaps there was a fleet-wide modification or repair that resulted in the need to repaint that portion of the fin/rudder. If you look at this colour pic of PT-N (it's very similar to the one of PT-A a couple of posts up) it shows a decent side-view of PT-K which doesn't have any indications of further "Light Earth" markings elsewhere on the fuselage.

L6669, PT-N

Also of note is the the shiny finish on PT-K.

Does PT*N look lighter (more weathered?) and flat than PT*K? Like looking at a picture puzzle as to what is different, wrong or doesn't belong.

[mhaselden]

Does PT*N look lighter (more weathered?) and flat than PT*K? Like looking at a picture puzzle as to what is different, wrong or doesn't belong.

Yep. No two airframes are identical...ever.

[Max Headroom]

Yep. No two airframes are identical...ever.

Look at the picture of PT*N and PT*K just above. The underside colour demarcation line sweeps up under 'N' but continues in a straight line under 'K'.

BTW re the tail flash colour on that pic - the blue is certainly lighter but can't make my mind up about the red?

Trevor

[mhaselden]

Look at the picture of PT*N and PT*K just above. The underside colour demarcation line sweeps up under 'N' but continues in a straight line under 'K'.

And the pics of PT-A show another variation, similar to PT-N but not identical.

[mhaselden]

WKBS Jim Maas reminded me of the artwork on the original release of the Tamiya Buffalo kit. Interesting to see the fuselage band and spinner in a definite blue shade - perhaps they knew something back then that we didn't determine until very recently???

[Dave Fleming]

Thinking about where Sky Blue would have come from, I wonder if the Royal Navy in Singapore used target aircraft?

[Nick Millman]

Chip of MAP Sky Blue rendered from photospectrometer measured values superimposed on the lightened image. The question is - expedient or deliberate? And, if the latter, what are the implications for pre-1944 SEAC colour schemes?

[mhaselden]

We're not reaching a consensus on the underside colour are we? That's too scary to contemplate! I agree, Nick, that these colour pics do open up a range of other questions. Of immediate relevance, I wonder whether Sky Blue was also applied to the undersides of the Vildebeests when they were camouflaged. That said, we perhaps need to be a little careful of extrapolating this colour scheme to aircraft operating from India in the 1942-44 timeframe but it's not unreasonable that more aircraft than previously thought might have worn Sky Blue undersides.

Regarding the bright fin flash colours, it's not clear whether those were applied in Singapore or in India prior to the Feb 41 redeployment. I haven't yet found any pics of the unit's aircraft in India that clearly show . In either case, is it reasonable to postulate that the only insignia colours available in the local stores were pre-war bright colours rather than the dull variants employed when aircraft started to be camouflaged? I'm not sure my argument works for the Dark Blue since I'm unsure whether the pre-war colour was brighter than the wartime colour. I'm away from my references right now so I don't know if there are any pics of 27 Sqn aircraft in India prior to their move to Singapore which we can use for comparison purposes (I seem to recall one or two being available either in the Osprey or Warner books).

This really has been a fascinating discussion.

[Nick Millman]

It may be a figment of imagination in my fevered brain but I'm sure I can remember a FE Blenheim 1 profile showing sky blue under surfaces. Was it from the old Air International magazine series, the profiles from which have been reproduced so often?

But as you say the most intriguing thing is to discover what lay behind this. Whether it was an expedient means to re-paint the night undersurfaces unique to Blenheims or a theatre practice, official or semi-official, the documented requirements for which appear to have been lost. If so are there perhaps implications for ME too?

[Test Graham]

If this colour is identified as the wartime Sky Blue, then was this available when the Vildebeests were camouflaged?

The usual reference to the use of Sky Blue is linked to ME Command's dislike of Sky, and it is unclear how this opinion would have affected the Far East. ME Command did cover the Persian Gulf and western Indian Ocean, so I wouldn't rule out the exchange of opinions. It also must postdate the introduction of Sky.

So place yourself in the position of staff officers in the Far East prewar. What colour would you choose to paint the underside of camouflaged aircraft? You have no Observer Corps requiring high-visibility black/white undersides. I suggest they would either retain Aluminium (and perhaps then be faced with the inevitable comment "That's not camouflage, Smithers, go away and obey orders!") or some kind of light blue.

[mhaselden]

Graham,

I think it all depends on the aircraft and its role. It's pretty clear that AHQFE had decided early in 1941 that fighters should have black port undersides as some form of identification marking. Other aircraft roles are more confused. For example, the RAF Blenheim MkI bombers wore black undersides while the RAAF Hudsons retained their aluminium undersides. The Blenheim MkIV aircraft received later in 1941 appear to have worn "factory standard" Sky undersides, but I don't know enough about the timing of their arrival or their allocation to units to hazard a guess at whether they were repainted after they arrived in theatre. As for the Vildebeests, I don't have a timeframe for when they were repainted. I've never examined their F540s in detail so don't know what, if any, info they might contain.

As for the influence of Middle East on AHQFE, it's certainly possible particularly if personnel were posted from the former to the latter but I suspect such influence was informal in nature. There is no evidence that AHQFE senior leadership said, "Let's consult with the Middle East on how to get organised and camouflage our aircraft" and no documents have come to light which prove that staff officers made liaison visits. Since Far East Command was afforded a fair degree of autonomy in camouflage decisions, I suspect AHQFE simply did the best they could with what they had to hand because they were bottom of the priority pile after the UK, Middle East/North Africa and Russia.

Cheers,

Mark

[Mike G]

WKBS Jim Maas reminded me of the artwork on the original release of the Tamiya Buffalo kit. Interesting to see the fuselage band and spinner in a definite blue shade - perhaps they knew something back then that we didn't determine until very recently???

I've mentioned this before - after all, the kit was out nearly 40 years ago - a lot closer to the events than we are now. No reason why the artist could not have got info from a Japanese eye witness.

Anyway, I'll be in Singapore myself in a couple of weeks, so I'll check out the colour of the sky! Rarely blue from previous experience!

[Test Graham]

I fear the Tamiya boxart is simply reflecting the contemporary opinion of Sky undersides and Sky Blue trim for the period. It may have been 40 years ago but it was still 30 years after the event. Nowadays there is much more information available than there was when the kit came out, and it seems very unlikely that Tamiya consulted any informed eyewitnesses.

Edited February 11, 2011 by Graham Boak

[mhaselden]

I wouldn't be too sure of that Graham. There are a number of contemporary (ie early 1942) Japanese aviation/military magazines which include fantastic pictures and detailed descriptions of aircraft captured in Malaya, Singapore, the Dutch East Indies and the Philippines. Details include armour plate, engines, aircraft systems, performance etc. If only I could read Japanese I'd have a much clearer understanding of the contents of these sources but, sadly, I don't.

[Test Graham]

I fear you would still have considerable difficulty in distinguishing between Sky, Sky Blue, and Sky Type S Gray based on 1942 Japanese descriptions. Particularly given the Japanese language's confusion (in Western eyes) between blue and green. Note how many Japanese kits tell you to paint the starboard nav. light blue.

[keefr22]

I fear you would still have considerable difficulty in distinguishing between Sky, Sky Blue, and Sky Type S Gray based on 1942 Japanese descriptions. Particularly given the Japanese language's confusion (in Western eyes) between blue and green. Note how many Japanese kits tell you to paint the starboard nav. light blue.

More often than not, starboard nav lights are blue, because bulbs often give a yellowish light - yellow & blue = green. I grant you not light blue, but blue is mainly correct!

And as for confusing blue & green, what would that mean to your average erk....??!!

Great thread, I really enjoy colour discussions that don't descend to bun fights!

K

Edited February 11, 2011 by keefr22

[mhaselden]

I fear you would still have considerable difficulty in distinguishing between Sky, Sky Blue, and Sky Type S Gray based on 1942 Japanese descriptions. Particularly given the Japanese language's confusion (in Western eyes) between blue and green. Note how many Japanese kits tell you to paint the starboard nav. light blue.

Perhaps. I just find it rather ironic that I've been laughing about how Tamiya got that box art wrong for years and now, blow me, if they weren't right all along! Mea culpa and another slice of humble pie for your's truly.

[mhaselden]

Well, I checked the references I have available and on p.91 of the Osprey book is a poor-quality image showing a line-up of 27 Sqn Blenheims allegedly taken at Risalpur in early 1941 and the aircraft wear the same fin flash markings as seen in the LIFE pics. If we can accept that this image was taken at Risalpur before the Sqn moved to Singapore, then it's pretty clear that the bright fin flashes were applied in India.

I also looked at "Bloody Shambles" Vol 1 and found another pic of a 27 Sqn Blenheim on p.88 wearing the PT code but no individual letter (which perhaps explains the slight tonal variation between the PT and the individual letter on some airframes). This aircraft also had the fin flash applied to almost the entire fin, although there was no date associated. The gun pack was visible in the photo, perhaps suggesting it was taken after the unit moved to Singapore (or perhaps even later, while the Sqn was in Northern Malaya). Even curiouser, however, were the A1 roundels visible on the upper wings. I've never seen any pics of Blenheims with those roundels and I have to believe they would have been overpainted with Type B roundels but that raises the interesting question of what colours were used to overpaint the A1 roundels - bright blue and red, perhaps?

Note that the pics of L8618 taken by the Japanese show the smaller, rectangular fin flash so perhaps the bright large fin flashes didn't survive long after the Sqn moved to Singapore?

Is there no end to the questions???

Edited February 12, 2011 by mhaselden

[Edgar]

Oh, dear, I really should have known better; I shall now have to go and write out, 100 times, "I must not trespass on the realms of other people's expertise."

Edited February 12, 2011 by Edgar