expositor Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Brilliant photos, thank you for sharing.Could the yellow leading edge be de-icing paste..? Oh, and please note the red in the roundels, which does appear to be "dull" red. hello super, not to be contrary, but i think the leading edge is just the earth camou color; just look up over the airman's elbow-the colors are of the same shade. however, anything's possible, and you could very well be right! cheerio, jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 (edited) 'Fraid I disagree, Expositor. The leading edges of the tailplane and fin on these aircraft are definitely painted yellow. Look at the pic showing the tail of PT-N. The fin clearly has a yellow stripe running up the leading edge. Edited January 14, 2011 by mhaselden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Eisenman Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 hello super,not to be contrary, but i think the leading edge is just the earth camou color; just look up over the airman's elbow-the colors are of the same shade. however, anything's possible, and you could very well be right! cheerio, jim Based on my Mac monitor, it does appear yellow. Also look at the leading edge of the fin. I don't think it is deicer paste, that was a mustard color, IIRC, and would be on the main wings, more likely than on leading edge of the tail. And it was Singapore... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Looks yellow on my PC monitor, too. I don't think it is deicer, for the reasons you give, but it does get cold at night in the tropics. These aircraft did have nightfighter duties, so it isn't quite as outrageous a suggestion as it might appear. However, I don't recall examples of UK-based night fighters with the deicer paste, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
expositor Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 you guys have a point, but are there any amo's or other info that points to painting a narrow stripe of say yellow on the leading edges of tail surfaces which would not be visible to another aircraft at two or three hundred yards? if for deicing, why nothing on the mainplane? look at the photo of pt-a; the fin definitely shows a very narrow srip of either a primer or some light color; as for yellow, just look at the cockade yellow, it's a hell of a lot darker, and the same yellow used later for leading edges for fighter command aircraft, no? anyway, i never mentioned the leading edge of the vertical tail, i only mentioned the leading edge of the horizontal tail, and looking at, again pt-a, it ain't yellow, but does look very much like the upper surface camouflage. anyway, what purpose would be served by such a narrow strip of pale 'yellow,' basically invisible at a distance, unless it was primer to cover some leading edge wear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I don't think the yellows are different, they appear that way because of the effect of the light. If you look at the final view of the airman you will see that out of the bright light, the yellow on the tailplane leading edge is every bit as intense as that on the roundel. No, I've never heard of any such thing prescribed as marking in any AMOs (though I wouldn't necessarily expect it there but local, and any local Singapore rulings have been lost), but neither have I seen any such example of primer over wear. Whereas such might be possible on the tailplane leading edge because of muck kicked up by the props, it seems to be too thin for that and to go too far around the tip, and the wear argument wouldn't apply to the fin. It would apply to the wing leading edge inboard. Also, the yellow on the fin extends further forward on N than on A, which would be odd if intended as primer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
occa Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Fantastic pics, thanks for posting them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentalguru Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Well how about having the black/white undersides repainted entirely in a light bluey greyey colour? Also, note the interesting box affairs on the underside of the nacelles- I thought the air intake was at the top inside edge of the cowling, but it looks to be the bottom here. Obviously some sort of tropical mod, like the paint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCRanger Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Also, note the interesting box affairs on the underside of the nacelles- I thought the air intake was at the top inside edge of the cowling, but it looks to be the bottom here. Obviously some sort of tropical mod, like the paint. They are standard tropical filters also fitted to other types such as the Gladiator in the desert and FE. They were usually fitted in the UK prior to delivery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted January 15, 2011 Author Share Posted January 15, 2011 (edited) Well how about having the black/white undersides repainted entirely in a light bluey greyey colour? Standard delivery colour for early Blenheims was Dark Earth, Dark Green and Black camouflage with white serial numbers under the wings. Upon reaching Singapore 27 Sqn was assigned a fighter role and the aircraft had a fighter band and the starboard underside painted Sky Blue, as evidenced by these photos and the B&W photos referenced and posted in the earlier thread. All the Singapore photos (colour and B&W) were taken by one photographer, Carl Mydans, working for LIFE magazine. They are from the same timeframe (probably within minutes). The black port underside and fuselage band match the markings worn by Buffalo fighters of Far East Command. What "black/white undersides" are you referring to? Edited January 15, 2011 by mhaselden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justplanecrazy Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 These photos were the subject of another thread on this forum last year and are B&W photos taken just before the outbreak of hostilities in Malaya. I am convinced they are colourised not original colour photos. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted January 15, 2011 Author Share Posted January 15, 2011 (edited) These photos were the subject of another thread on this forum last year and are B&W photos taken just before the outbreak of hostilities in Malaya. I am convinced they are colourised not original colour photos.Nick Nick, Per my earlier thread, Carl Mydans took both the B&W pics to which you refer and this series which are in colour (including arcane shots of a floosie with a big Chinese hat and a couple of Indian soldiers winding a turban). Mydans obviously had a couple of cameras, one with B&W film and the other colour - he was a photographer, after all. None of these colour pics match the aircraft in the photos from last year's thread, indeed the Blenheim L6669 PT-N isn't even imaged on any of those other B&W pics. Please, by all means, do a search on the LIFE archives (via Google) for Singapore and you'll find colour photos of anti-tank guns and their tractors, there's also a colour pic of one of Singapore's big gun installations. They are all original colour pics not colourized. KR Mark Edited January 15, 2011 by mhaselden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted January 15, 2011 Author Share Posted January 15, 2011 (edited) Anyway, what purpose would be served by such a narrow strip of pale 'yellow,' basically invisible at a distance, unless it was primer to cover some leading edge wear? I think it's more of a warning marking than an identification marking. Perhaps it was for the groundcrew or to remind the rear gunner that shooting off his tail was a bad thing. Like Graham, I'm pretty convinced this is some form of yellow marking. Re-examining the B&W photos that were posted last year, similar strips are visible on L6635, L6649, L4928, L6666 and one other whose serial is not visible. This evidence strongly suggests a "standard marking" on 27 Sqn aircraft for some reason. Edited January 15, 2011 by mhaselden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilneBay Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 (edited) Interesting - same colours as the guide to paint the old Frog Maryland in French markings. Probably is that tropical RAF scheme. and I suspect the two tone brown is down to it having just rained. Singapore is in the tropics and those are rainclouds in the sky. Edited January 15, 2011 by MilneBay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMacG Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 FWIW, to start with colours show, I used Photoshop to play with those colour pics of the Blenheim fighters; once you remove the overall blue cast from the pics, the colour of the fuselage bands looks much closer to real 'sky' than sky blue. There is another pic of a 27 Sq Blenheim fighter; the aircraft is PT-F L8618. The photo was taken by the Japnese after the A/c was captured virtually intact, probably in northern Malaya.The a/c does have an identical sky fuselage band, complete with cut-out for the serial, but is really interesting is the entire undersurface of the port wing would seem to be painted black, which would agre with the comments posted above. (You can't see the undersides oof the tailplane in the pic.) BUT there's more.... I've seen it stated (Somewhere!) that 27Sq only had one flight (6 a/c) of Blenheim fighters, the other flight being normal Blenheim I bombers. Thiere is a relatively well-known pic of 'PT' coded Blenheim I bombers with standard black undersides (PT-D:L6667). BUT..... According to Geoffrey Rex Collins in his book 'Tattered Eagle' (he was a 27Sq groundcrewman) the Blenheim Ifs didn't receive their gun packs (or back armour for the pilot) until abbout October 1941, so the lenheim bomber pic might pre-date this. Now all we3 need is a pic of an 'EG' coded Blenheim IV - IN SINGAPORE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted January 15, 2011 Author Share Posted January 15, 2011 (edited) John, According to the 27 Sqn 540, fighter training commenced in early March 1941 immediately after the Squadron arrived in Singapore. The entire squadron practiced both fighter and bombing tactics thru to the end of October 1941 when the 540 ends (presumably later entries were lost when the squadron evacuated Sungei Patani). There was no dedicated "fighter flight". I think the difference between underside colour schemes is simply that repainting aircraft in the Day Fighter markings took time to accomplish and these photos (taken on 2 April according to the 540) reflect the transition period as the unit prepared to move to Northern Malaya. These pictures clearly indicate that fighter gun packs were available long before the unit moved to Sungei Patani, although I accept that there may not have been enough to equip the entire squadron. Referring back to the 27 Sqn thread last year, one keen-eyed observer noted that one of the fighter Blenheims was also fitted with a bomb carrier rack on the rear fuselage, and there was speculation that this was the configuration most commonly employed by the Squadron as removal of the gun pack was a non-trivial task. Kind regards, Mark Edited January 15, 2011 by mhaselden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCRanger Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 (edited) The "bomb carrier racks" are are Light Series racks which were common to both the fighter and bomber versions of the Blenheim. IIRC the maxmimum bomb size for these racks was 40lb. They were also commonly used by other aircraft such as the Hart, Swordfish etc. Edited January 15, 2011 by DCRanger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted January 15, 2011 Author Share Posted January 15, 2011 Thanks DC - I couldn't remember the precise name of the Light Series racks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 I took a look at all the available 27 Sqn pics (both B&W and the new colour ones) and came up with the following summaries of underside markings. In one pic of the line-up some 7 aircraft have blue starboard undersides, and one aircraft (perhaps part of the 7 or an extra airframe) had all-blue undersides with no fuselage band. I was able to confirm 3 airframes wore all-black undersides. I've specifically noted where I can positively confirm blue/black undersides. For aircraft where we only see the starboard side in blue but we can't confirm port underwing colour, I used the term "Blue starboard". I've also identified whether roundels were present or not under the wings when images permit this assessment. L4928 (PT-E) Black only, with roundels, no fuselage band, small letter 'E' L6633 (PT-?) Blue starboard L6635 (PT-A) Blue starboard, no roundels L6649 (PT-P) Black only, no fuselage band L6666 (PT-B or D) Blue & black no roundels L6667 (PT-O or U) Black no roundels, no fuselage band L6669 (PT-N) Blue & black no roundels L8618 (PT-F) Blue & black ???? (PT-K) Blue & black, no roundels ???? (PT-?) Blue only, no roundels, no fuselage band (this one's an interesting exception) Other aircraft flown by 27 Sqn but not seen on the images include: L6628 L6668 L8507 L8540 L8621 Sorry for being so pedantic but I thought a summary taken from all available images of 27 Sqn aircraft would be useful at this point. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 I took a look at all the available 27 Sqn pics (both B&W and the new colour ones) and came up with the following summaries of underside markings. In one pic of the line-up some 7 aircraft have blue starboard undersides, and one aircraft (perhaps part of the 7 or an extra airframe) had all-blue undersides with no fuselage band. I was able to confirm 3 airframes wore all-black undersides.I've specifically noted where I can positively confirm blue/black undersides. For aircraft where we only see the starboard side in blue but we can't confirm port underwing colour, I used the term "Blue starboard". I've also identified whether roundels were present or not under the wings when images permit this assessment. L4928 (PT-E) Black only, with roundels, no fuselage band, small letter 'E' L6633 (PT-?) Blue starboard L6635 (PT-A) Blue starboard, no roundels L6649 (PT-P) Black only, no fuselage band L6666 (PT-B or D) Blue & black no roundels L6667 (PT-O or U) Black no roundels, no fuselage band L6669 (PT-N) Blue & black no roundels L8618 (PT-F) Blue & black ???? (PT-K) Blue & black, no roundels ???? (PT-?) Blue only, no roundels, no fuselage band (this one's an interesting exception) Other aircraft flown by 27 Sqn but not seen on the images include: L6628 L6668 L8507 L8540 L8621 Sorry for being so pedantic but I thought a summary taken from all available images of 27 Sqn aircraft would be useful at this point. Cheers, Mark Not pedantic at all: very useful. Do they all have serials on the fin? Do all the fuselage bands have a cut-out for the serial? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 Not pedantic at all: very useful. Do they all have serials on the fin? Do all the fuselage bands have a cut-out for the serial? Yes and yes. The one minor exception seems to be L8618 which only carries the serial on the port side of the rudder. Presumable the starboard side had been repaired and overpainted at some point in its career (perhaps battle damage). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenshirt Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 I think it's more of a warning marking than an identification marking. Perhaps it was for the groundcrew or to remind the rear gunner that shooting off his tail was a bad thing. Like Graham, I'm pretty convinced this is some form of yellow marking. Re-examining the B&W photos that were posted last year, similar strips are visible on L6635, L6649, L4928, L6666 and one other whose serial is not visible. This evidence strongly suggests a "standard marking" on 27 Sqn aircraft for some reason. Not a marking at all, but a protective strip to the leading edge. Eliminates nicks and such when the tires and prop wash throw up rocks and other bits. I've put them on modern aircraft as well. Typically a very thin, yellow-ish transparent tape that then gets a coat of clear (I suspect dope back then) to seal it. It's been a few years so my memory doesn't tell me what the product was, specifically. It never occurred to me it was something done so long ago. I just assumed it was because of the high speeds at which we flew. We did it to keep the paint from peeling at high speeds (400-500 kts) on such a sharp edge. It wasn't visible from any distance, and being so close to the planes I never "noticed" them day-to-day until we had to repair them. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 Tim, I think you've found the answer! Thanks for the contribution. A protective strip like that makes sense, although one wonders why it wasn't seen on more aircraft types. Regards, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miduppergunner Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Wonderful pictures thank you - not qualified to comment upon colours - have played with them on photoshop but nothing material revealed. And bearing mind the myriad of things that can influence a colour photo think it would be bold to be too dogmatic. As to yellow edging, I feel it does appear on the fin as well - very neatly done and so doubt if it is de icing compound. That was more generously applied. As to being a protective strip it is just possible: but an old lag thinks that they would not have bothered - if they had such stuff. He can only recall a very heavy type of masking tape - a light beige - that was used to protect the edges of sections in transit. Admits his memory is not perfect (at 91) so who knows - but an entertaining series of posts. Much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Eisenman Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 A link to some Maydans pictures for color reference. Interesting scheme on the transporters. http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?q=S...73ee5a237e8c1f# http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?q=S...3b968d9fd6b80bf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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