What colours for desert Crusader, Shermans and Priests please

[Mike Starmer]

First off, there is no such colour as BS 381-1930 No.4 dark green 75. BS No.4 is Azure. The desert colours can be complex. When I have more time I will add to this thread later.

[Selwyn]

P.E. No.1 HA/NIV/387, and the "Desert Pink" is Z.I. HA/NIV/386; and, no, i haven't a clue what it means.

Edgar

The British used the term NIV (and maybe still do, I left the service in the 1990's!), for items that have no officially designated Stores section and Reference number. Its usually applied to local purchase items.

The organisation (Station/regiment/ command ) buying the item would give it a local stores reference number so it could be taken on charge and use the normal supply system for issue. so for instance HA/ NIV/386 would equate to the 386th local purchase item by that organisation. (HA?)

So the paint was probably purchased/manufactured in the middle east.

Selwyn

[Mike Starmer]

OK, as promised or threatened, more on desert colours. This can be complex so bear with me please. In mid 1940 the Caunter design was adopted for all land forces in Egypt. The basic colour was Light Stone 61 then Portland Stone 64 and reverted to Light Stone 61 depending on which dated order one read. The disruptive colours over this was Silver Grey 28 which is a medium toned slightly greyish yellow green like a darker greyed Sky colour and Slate 34 which was a dark grey green with Ahint of yellow about it. This scheme was formally discontinued in December 1941 although signals dated October 1941 warned of its demise. There were eight drawings for each class of tank and vehicle in service at the time. The depot painters had to adapt the class drawing to fit each type of vehicle which is why there are so mant subtle variations in use and in some cases merely the broad idea of the pattern.

The next scheme was a single overall colour of Light Stone 61 although Portland Stone 64 continued in use for a few months to exhaust stocks. It was intended that Commands could apply one disruptive colour of their choice over the basic colour at CO's discretion. The context of the order meant Commands as in Palestine, Malta, Trans-Jordan and so on. The result in fact was that some formations down to brigade level began to apply a whole range of designs and colour of their design. This started about March 1942 and is what I refer to as the random period. It is possble to identify some units by the style of patterning but not all. I some cases the design/colour changed each time a new issue of tank was received and the older design simply faded from use. Regretably no record of colours was kept. This was perceived as not only a waste of paint, time and in many cases actually drew attention to the vehicle besides a threat to security. A

Australian Forces in Syria and Palestine had their own patterns and The Sudan it's own colours and pattern variation of Caunter. In 1941 the 3rd RTR in Greece and 5 RTR carried a two coloured design unique to them by default and changed war priorities.

Before October Monty had taken charge and this chap was a martinet for regulations. Advised by the Camouflage Directorate a totally new system was adopted for desert camouflage. All vehicles were to be painted with Desert Pink ZI as basic colour with one disruptive colour on that. The prefered colour was Dark Green PFI but Black, Slate or Dark Brown may be alternatives. In the event Green or Black were the most common. Each type of tank and certain classes of vehicle had a specific disruptive pattern without deviation. That for the Sherman is as illustrated by Edgar. What few Shermans carried anything different prior to October 6 were either destroyed in action or repainted when repaired. The Crusader pattern is as in the photos in this thread, so a date of 1941 is in error for one of them. Grants, Stuarts and Valentines were treated in the same manner. Matildas of the tank brigades did not have disruptive painting. Most trucks, lorries and other vehicles were not disruptively painted since they were of no tactical value and carriers too small to bother with. ACVs were painted overall basic colour, some carried false bonnets and canvas roofs to appear as heavy lorries. Up to the end of the N.African campaign Light Stone was still in use alongside freshly painted Desert Pink equipments and pre-October design may still be seen on some tanks. Copies of the relevant drawings may be found in my books on the subject. Be aware that these disruptive patterns were overall the vehicle, not just the sides as I have seen at shows. The designs are carefully planned with certain parameters in mind, deviation was not permitted without good reason and permission. Painting orders carried the same weight as any other regulation in KRs.

Colours: Humbrol do not have any of the desert colours in their range. The closest might be 86 with 25% 159 added. 121 is the colour of Israeli aircraft 1970-80 period. Revell 9 is spot on for Black, add a touch of medium grey. The Lifecolor set No.6 is totally useless, nothing is even near the correct colour. WEM have just Silver Grey close enough, all of the others need a significant adjustment. The mixes for the colours can be found on the MAFVA website.