John Aero Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 (edited) Here is the photo which Ivor Ramsden has provided. Taken at Jurby. Points of note are that it seems to be on Ortho film, (note the roundel) but is it? It might be an effect of the low bright (winter) sunshine. I have just compared it to a picture of Masters in Yellow/DE/DG and the roundel matches and the Yellow of the Masters is not dark. The picture is under exposed and the top of the cockpit it darker which given the light conditions should be lighter if the plane was one overall colour so it's definitely camouflaged on top IMO. Note no yellow ring to the roundel. So is this a Yellow fuselage? This one from my own collection is definintely NIVO. John Edited January 17, 2011 by John Aero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 So is this a Yellow fuselage? Note the forward port interplane strut. It appears to be in 2 colours. Could be the effect of strong sunshine (though I don't know how you get shadows on the bottom part but not the top). Or is it the upper half painted yellow to match the underside of the top wing and the lower half in DE/DG to match the upper surface of the bottom wing? OTOH I can't see the same effect of the after strut (which is in shadow). I can't recall offhand what the rules for the painting of interplane struts were. Back to you expert photo interpreters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 (edited) If you look at the shadow of the stbd engine on the fuselage, then the dark lower port strut can be explained by being the shadow of the fuselage. My understanding is that interplane struts should be camouflaged in the colour they were standing on, but I don't know where that came from, and it may be different with high demarcation schemes where they could be regarded as "sides". I suspect two-colour struts will prove rarer than yellow Heyfords. Edited January 17, 2011 by Graham Boak 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Struts, It's the shadow cast by the fuselage nose, nothing more I'm afraid. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitbasher2009 Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 (edited) More fascinating material. Are the leading edges of the front engine/spat struts a different material to the trailing parts as they appear to be a different shade than the rest. Definitely NOT suggesting adifferent colour, rather the same shade but perhaps discoloured due to differing base materials?Also, note the roundel tones are pretty much the same as K7226 higher up the page - significant or not (in terms of type of film)? And yes, it does look as though the upper surfaces are darker than fuselage sides and undersides, but it's hard to tell if there's a disruptive pattern on top.Regards,KB09 Edited October 9, 2013 by kitbasher2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 More fascinating material. Are the leading edges of the front engine/spat struts a different material to the trailing parts as they appear to be a different shade than the rest. Definitely NOT suggesting adifferent colour, rather the same shade but perhaps discoloured due to differing base materials?Also, not the roundel tones are pretty much the same as K7226 highrt up the page - significant or not (in terms of type of film)? And yes, it does look as though the upper surfaces are darker than fuselage sideds and undersides, but it's hard to tell if there's a disruptive pattern on top. Regards, KB09 I looked at the nose of the spats and my conclusion is they are probably shinier due to having all the drips of fuel ,oil and coolant wiped off them. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Struts, It's the shadow cast by the fuselage nose, nothing more I'm afraid. John Yes, you're right. Can see that now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilneBay Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Looks like Nivo to me. and taken with a low sun angle. And to think someone looped one of those - I'm still trying to work out how they got into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssculptor Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 "Night Invisible Varnish Orfordness" - a dark green paint devised at the research station in Suffolk for use on bombers. I have a question. Does anyone make the color NIVO in a model paint? Or, what paints can one use to mix that particular color? Thanks, Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 This is the shade card, in the RAF Museum's library (supplied by Fairey/Ian Huntley, I believe.) During the war, the Air Ministry opined that matt Dark Green had the same reflectivity as NIVO. Hannant's supply NIVO, in Xtracolor, under X020 Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XF442 Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 Does anyone make the color NIVO in a model paint? My NIVO stock is from Xtracolor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 I have a sample of original NIVO on fabric. It is a very dark greyish green with the green hue just tempered by dark grey. Geoff Thomas gave Methuen 28 F 4 and likened it to FS 34096 but the sample is darker and slightly more blue-green than that. It is significantly darker and greener than Dark Slate Grey which I also recently measured, with a difference calculation of over 7 where <2.0 is a close match. Dark Slate Grey was close to FS 34096 @ 2.68 (which Geoff Thomas also compared it to) but I could find no close matches for the NIVO sample in FS595B or RAL. Diffuse reflectivity is 10% to Dark Green 7% and Dark Slate Grey 12%. It is difficult to see any obvious "family" connection between NIVO and Dark Slate Grey from the examples examined. Comparing it to brushed out samples of Humbrol paint it is closer to 91 Black Green than 30 Dark Green. Accepting that the sample might have darkened with age and yellowed slightly it was perhaps originally a little lighter and greyer than 91. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssculptor Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Thank you, guys, for the info. Should be interesting to try to mix it. Perhaps 91 Humbrol with just the merest touch of white to lighten and grey it a tiny bit. It may be expensive since I will be working in 1/32 scale which will require a good quantity of paint. I do not think I will try the two color shadow scheme, even it it did appear on this plane in the late 1930's (debatable). Certainly not the yellow bellied sapsucker scheme. Yech! I prefer the plane in its prime. Whatever color I end up with I will not debate it's correctness after I have finished painting the plane. These debates can be endless, as we all know so I will take the advice of what you gentlemen have given me and work from that. I prefer the Humbrol 91 direction. All in all, if I like the end result then I will have accomplished what I set out to do. Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennings Heilig Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 FOUR PAGES of chatter about the Heyford, and STILL we have no 1/48 kit! What gives?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Quite simply a 1/48 Heyford would not sell. Take a look at how many examples of the reissued limited edition 1/72 Heyford Hannants still have. Look at the accessories available. The ex-Matchbox kit is the only one in town but it doesn't sell either. It is quite easy to generate four pages of discussion on what is an esoteric subject. Maybe you could find a limited run or resin producer interested in the idea but I guarantee you it would be an expensive kit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Quite simply a 1/48 Heyford would not sell. Take a look at how many examples of the reissued limited edition 1/72 Heyford Hannants still have. Look at the accessories available. The ex-Matchbox kit is the only one in town but it doesn't sell either. It is quite easy to generate four pages of discussion on what is an esoteric subject. Maybe you could find a limited run or resin producer interested in the idea but I guarantee you it would be an expensive kit. As regards a 1:48th Heyford, it is one that I looked at some years ago as one of my British Bombers, follow on to my Fighter series. The kit would have to be a Vacform IMO (can you see the bunnies running) if the price was to be kept down. Remember the span would be 18.75" (over 45cm). With of course multi media parts. It's too big for (my) injection and would be very expensive in resin. It does surprise me what prices some will pay for resin kits. But that's the difference between modelling and assembling. John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennings Heilig Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Quite simply a 1/48 Heyford would not sell. Take a look at how many examples of the reissued limited edition 1/72 Heyford Hannants still have. Look at the accessories available. The ex-Matchbox kit is the only one in town but it doesn't sell either. It is quite easy to generate four pages of discussion on what is an esoteric subject. Maybe you could find a limited run or resin producer interested in the idea but I guarantee you it would be an expensive kit. I disagree, and I lobbied Classic Airframes very hard to do it - and he was interested. I think the Heyford is *perfect* for the likes of Special Hobby or CA (if he ever re-emerges). You'll never see Tamigawa do one of course, but for the cottage industry it's perfect. Look at all the bizarre oddball stuff they've already done. At least there was more than one Heyford built, unlike some of the other stuff they've done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 There is another aspect to this: 1/48 is much more popular in the US than in the UK, and the Heyford is likely to be much more popular in the UK than in the US. Not a combination likely to bring big sales. Not being a 1/48 modeller (and having a vast stock of unmade kits!), I don't really care if some producer spends his time and money on something I don't think would sell, but there are a fair number of WW2 British subjects built in small but significant numbers (numbers comparable to the Heyford) that have not yet appeared in injected plastic 1/72. Henley, Lerwick, Botha, and London come to mind, but Warwick is another, and York a third. Although promised, we are yet to see the Bombay or the Harrow. How about an Ensign, or Vega Gull? Vildebeeste? I feel almost any of these would outsell a 1/48 Heyford. re the yellow as opposed to NIVO Heyford. If you want to just do a Heyford, then NIVO is the colour of choice, I agree. If you want to do a collection of WW2 types, then NIVO is excluded. To include a Heyford in such a collection, you are looking at yellow. I feel that training aircraft are too neglected as model subjects (you can't wave it in your hands and go taka taka taka - well you can but you know it's silly!) so just being yellow doesn't bother me. Lets add a Harvard Mk.I to the list of types that cry out to be done. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Interwar fighters - yes you can generate sales and interest. Bombers - no, there is absolutely no interest at all. Even in the US there isn't much interest in the bombers they used interwar. A Heyford is not going to attract many sales and will be a big kit in 1/48. Vac-form in 1/48 and 1/32 are possible but injection moulding is unlikely. Sorry but it just isnt't a seller and Classic Airframes was probably being polite. For the Cottage Industry it is big and fairly remote (It's not German). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssculptor Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 If, and that is a walloping big IF, I get my vacuform made (so I can try to fly it), I would probably put it on the market. I would not expect many sales, if any, because the vac kit would be in 1/32 scale and would be for scratch modelers. I will build this model and try to make a flyable version simply because I get enjoyment from doing so. Also I like that particular airplane (the Heyford). Many cottage industry products are "Labors of Love" and not conscious efforts to make one a lot of money. Wingscale in Holland is run by a gentleman who owns and runs an established injection molding firm and it is obvious that he is getting into 1/32 aircraft as a labor of love as much as an effort to make money. I shall gladly buy everything he produces with the knowledge that although he is doing this for the enjoyment as well as the income he will never knowingly produce a model that will not sell well. He is not foolish. So, if a modeler wants a model of a certain aircraft he should either learn how to build from scratch or hire an expert to scratch build it for him for much $$$ or just dream on. I would love to have a 1/32 model of the Skua and the Dornier flying boats in 1/32 but I know the only way I'll get them is to scratch build it myself. Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justplanecrazy Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 The following image is from " War In The Air ", a short-lived magazine from the early 90's. It was selection of 1940 articles from " The Aeroplane " and " Flight ". The image shows a Hampden with a Heyford in the background. The Heyford looks to be finished in a light colour. I'm not saying it's yellow or brown, just lighter than what I think NIVO would be. It may be just badly faded. I tried to scan the Heyford larger but the quality of the magazine paper and my new, s***e printer leaves a lot to be desired. Chris Guys I've founds this on the Stirling site ( http://sas.raf38group.org/forum/index.php) David (Kitbasher2009) and I believe it to be the same Heyford and looks to have Yellow undersides. More fuel on the fire! Nick 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 (edited) Interesting - I'd say certainly the same a/c and also yellow cowling and wheel 'spat'. Photo is also on the IWM site http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205229731 Just wich this one was better! http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/22/media-22817/large.jpg Edited October 13, 2013 by Dave Fleming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeronut Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 In its (experimental) use as a glider tug wouldn't it be a requirement that the Heyford be Yellow underneath? BTW looking at that tow rope just how slow was the Heyford flying? The Hotspur Mk 1 has to be flying faster than the Heyford to put that much slack in the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Ramsden Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Maybe the Hotspur is pushing ... I'll get me coat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Yes, as Dave says, it would be interesting to see a better version of the Hotspur picture because we know that has a Yellow underside. In the other picture, with the Ansons, you can make out the darker tops of the engines and fuselage on the Heyford when enlarged and although it is darker than the roundels on the Ansons, perhaps it was hastily sprayed over it's original Nivo to suit it's new (and by the age of the aircraft) temporary role. I for one think it was Yellow. Can I suggest that the people milling around were Observer Corps and if this question had been posed some time ago perhaps one of these observant gentlemen might have given us chapter and verse. As to the faster Hotspur it's standard practice to drop the nose of the towed a/c to gain speed before releasing the tow. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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