Spitfire FR.MkXIVe

[SLoB]

Thanks Edgar

I therefore assume they were on both wings, but might not appear on all aircraft as it was a pilot preference matter?

SLoB

[Chuck1945]

Thanks Edgar

I therefore assume they were on both wings, but might not appear on all aircraft as it was a pilot preference matter?

SLoB

The oblique camera was only mounted on one side, so I would guess that the stripes, if used, would only be on the side the camera faced.

[Edgar]

There are a couple of other points, in that photo; it seems to confirm the delay in the introduction of the "R.V." Spitfires, since it's possible to see where the Sky tail band has been painted out, and the band was discontinued at the end of 1944, so that airframe could have been sitting in an M.U. for some time before its issue. In this case, too, it's possible to see that the band was over-painted green, since it's darker (fresher) than the original paint nearby (it's also possible to see the band beginning to reappear in places.) The individual letter appears to be white, not sky, and (O.K., make it three points,) from the shape of its cover, I'd say that it's fitted with the gyro gunsight.

Edgar

[gingerbob]

2TAF (Vol.3) says that's NH757, which was delivered at the end of Feb (Spit the Hist says end March, but the other serials around it are all late Feb/early Mar). I think it is likely that Supermarine either kept merrily applying the Sky tailband OR had already painted up a bunch of fuselages before the directive came down. It was apparently (by my deduction) sitting in an MU for a while, not being issued until mid April.

bob

[ColFord]

The camera aiming marks would tend to be on both wings as the F.24 camera could be set up to point out either side of the fuselage. There were camera ports in both sides of the fuselage. The camera aiming marks I've seen done as red, white or yellow, obviously using paint available to hand to touch up the national markings.

The aircraft in the Fighter Reconnaissance Squadrons using the type during wartime tended to set up all aircraft the same as aircraft were not normally allocated to a pilot. The Squadron OC and the Flight Commanders might have a usual or preferred aircraft, but there was no guarantee other pilots would not fly it if the need arose. Aircraft would be allocated to pilots based on serviceability and the sortie they were to fly. Post war, the habits and arrangements changed where pilots did tend to have an aircraft allocated to them as the Squadrons settled more into a peacetime operational routine.

I've found a number of discrepancies in the aircraft cards and various published histories where an aircraft is shown on the card as being with a MU or GSU, but the aircraft was already out with the Squadron being flown and recorded in the ORBs and pilot's log books. I've found a couple of examples where aircraft are recorded as being allocated/issued to a Squadron, but there is no record of it anywhere in the Squadron or pilot records. As with any record keeping, errors creep in.

[Wim Deneweth]

Dear Colford, I'm writing an article on the crash of MV316 in 1946. You mention a photograph at B.106 Twente. Is that in "Spitfire : The History" or somewhere else? I would like to use it as an illustration.

Thank you,

Wim

[ColFord]

Wim,

The photograph you seek to best of my knowledge and memory has only been published in ADJIDAUMO - 'Tail in Air' - The History of No.268 Squadron Royal Air Force 1940-1946, written and self published by me.

The original is held in the collection of the Royal Air Force Museum at Hendon, Negative Number RAFMH P019204. If you are after a copy for use in a publication/article you would need to approach them for a copy and regarding their licencing arrangements and fees.

Regards,

[Neil Whiteley-Bolton]

Yep, well worth investing in, absolute goldmine of information, if you like that sort of thing

I'm trying to purchase this set but I would appreciate some guidance regarding what is actually in print:

• Volume 4 is available new at Amazon;
  Volume 3 is announced as currently unavailable;
  no information regarding Volume 2;
  Volume 1 is available 2nd Hand
  

There is however a seperate volume "2nd TAF" by Christopher F. Shores - the same author - what is the relationship between this book and the four volume set?

Thanks in advance.

Neil

[gingerbob]

The 4 volume set, if I remember right, evolved from the idea of "updating" the one volume book you mention. I have all of the above, but to be honest I'd have to look at the old one again to give you a reasonable answer about how it differs.

The first 3 volumes of the set are pretty much in chronological division, so if you're after something really particular you might be able to focus on one (or ask and I'll see what I can tell you). But if you have a more general interest in 2TAF do yourself a favor and get 'em all! I wouldn't think it would be too hard to track down used copies if you keep an eye out online, if they're out of print.

bob

[Neil Whiteley-Bolton]

The 4 volume set, if I remember right, evolved from the idea of "updating" the one volume book you mention. I have all of the above, but to be honest I'd have to look at the old one again to give you a reasonable answer about how it differs.

The first 3 volumes of the set are pretty much in chronological division, so if you're after something really particular you might be able to focus on one (or ask and I'll see what I can tell you). But if you have a more general interest in 2TAF do yourself a favor and get 'em all! I wouldn't think it would be too hard to track down used copies if you keep an eye out online, if they're out of print.

bob

Bob,

Just found Volume 2 on Amazon (US) - $120.00 new, $110 used - yowzer!

I have seen the single Volume for $20! I might buy this plus Volumes 1 and 4, both of which are more reasonably priced at Amazon (UK)

Thanks,

Neil

[Chris Thomas]

I'm trying to purchase this set but I would appreciate some guidance regarding what is actually in print:

• Volume 4 is available new at Amazon;
  Volume 3 is announced as currently unavailable;
  no information regarding Volume 2;
  Volume 1 is available 2nd Hand
  

There is however a seperate volume "2nd TAF" by Christopher F. Shores - the same author - what is the relationship between this book and the four volume set?

Thanks in advance.

Neil

First, thanks for the plug Bob!

The original '2nd Tactical Air Force' was written by Christopher F Shores and was published by Osprey in 1970. It had an overall chronological account of the 2nd TAF's part in the campaign in NW Europe 1944/45, followed by separate chapters detailing the activities of the Typhoon, Reconnaissance, Medium, Spitfire (Merlin), Mustang, Mosquito, Tempest, Spitfire (Griffon) squadrons. 48 colour profiles, 200-300 photos, 298 pages.

The more recent '2nd TAF' series was conceived as an expanded update of the original, to include day by day loss and claim lists. Planned as two volumes, it was expanded to 3 and then a fourth to cover topics we'd had to exclude. I was co-author and illustrator; there are c.130 profiles in total (58 I think in Vol.4 which has a chapter covering C & M). There are c.900 photos overall, many previously unpublished and most did not appear in the earlier edition. The last volume also covers the immediate postwar period when 2ndTAF became 'BAFO'.

I understand Vols 1 and 2 are out of print and Vol.3 on the verge. They were published between 2004 and 2008 by Ian Allan.

CT

[Johann_Olivier]

First, thanks for the plug Bob!

The original '2nd Tactical Air Force' was written by Christopher F Shores and was published by Osprey in 1970. It had an overall chronological account of the 2nd TAF's part in the campaign in NW Europe 1944/45, followed by separate chapters detailing the activities of the Typhoon, Reconnaissance, Medium, Spitfire (Merlin), Mustang, Mosquito, Tempest, Spitfire (Griffon) squadrons. 48 colour profiles, 200-300 photos, 298 pages.

The more recent '2nd TAF' series was conceived as an expanded update of the original, to include day by day loss and claim lists. Planned as two volumes, it was expanded to 3 and then a fourth to cover topics we'd had to exclude. I was co-author and illustrator; there are c.130 profiles in total (58 I think in Vol.4 which has a chapter covering C & M). There are c.900 photos overall, many previously unpublished and most did not appear in the earlier edition. The last volume also covers the immediate postwar period when 2ndTAF became 'BAFO'.

I understand Vols 1 and 2 are out of print and Vol.3 on the verge. They were published between 2004 and 2008 by Ian Allan.

CT

Hi Chris,

May I take this opportunity to commend you and your co-authors on a truly exceptional body of work. Well done!!

Regards,

Johann

[Chris Thomas]

May I take this opportunity to commend you and your co-authors on a truly exceptional body of work. Well done!!

Regards,

Johann

Many thanks Johann. I'll pass that on to Chris Shores.

CT

[Chris Thomas]

2TAF (Vol.3) says that's NH757, which was delivered at the end of Feb (Spit the Hist says end March, but the other serials around it are all late Feb/early Mar). I think it is likely that Supermarine either kept merrily applying the Sky tailband OR had already painted up a bunch of fuselages before the directive came down. It was apparently (by my deduction) sitting in an MU for a while, not being issued until mid April.

bob

In reply to the above, and Edgar's previous comment re the painting out of the Sky band, I'd like to point out that this practice was solely for 2ndTAF aircraft. All fighter types were still leaving the factory with rear fuselage bands painted on; if they went on to Fighter Command rather than 2ndTAF, they were retained. The painting to the appropriate command's requirements took place at MUs or GSUs/SUs. probably the GSUs in 2ndTAF's case.

it is difficult to determine exactly when aircraft arrived with 2ndTAF units as by this stage in the war their arrival on the unit was not reported immediately - periodic returns of aircraft on strength were sent in (every 1 or 2 weeks I believe) - frequently reports seem to have been missed or mis-recorded. The ORBs are also unreliable for various reasons. Even pilots' logs can be misleading as some used the squadron ORBs to update their logs.

Chris

[Seahawk]

At the risk of digressing somewhat, can I ask Those Who Know a related question on what happened to the yellow leading strip edges? Various books I have are very good at describing when they were introduced and what form they should take but are silent on when they were discontinued. Presumably they were retained on ADGB aircraft until the end of hostilities? But what about aircraft deployed to the Continent? Were they painted out as part of the post-Bodenplatte toning down activities, along with the loss of the sky band and introduction of black spinners? If not, was there ever an instruction formally abolishing them?

[Chris Thomas]

At the risk of digressing somewhat, can I ask Those Who Know a related question on what happened to the yellow leading strip edges? Various books I have are very good at describing when they were introduced and what form they should take but are silent on when they were discontinued. Presumably they were retained on ADGB aircraft until the end of hostilities? But what about aircraft deployed to the Continent? Were they painted out as part of the post-Bodenplatte toning down activities, along with the loss of the sky band and introduction of black spinners? If not, was there ever an instruction formally abolishing them?

I've not seen any instruction abolishing yellow LE stripes other than one which was issued c.mid-August 1944 authorising the removal from aircraft engaged in anti-Diver operations (this was due concern over poor maintenance of the stripes causing loss of performance) - by which time the Diver threat was all but over. I've not seen photos which show stripes were removed. Photos do show that that 2ndTAF fighters carried them until the end of hostilities and beyond. Not sure after that ....

Chris

[Seahawk]

I've not seen any instruction abolishing yellow LE stripes other than one which was issued c.mid-August 1944 authorising the removal from aircraft engaged in anti-Diver operations (this was due concern over poor maintenance of the stripes causing loss of performance) - by which time the Diver threat was all but over. I've not seen photos which show stripes were removed. Photos do show that that 2ndTAF fighters carried them until the end of hostilities and beyond. Not sure after that ....

Chris

Thanks for quick and helpful answer, Chris.

[Neil Whiteley-Bolton]

I've not seen any instruction abolishing yellow LE stripes other than one which was issued c.mid-August 1944 authorising the removal from aircraft engaged in anti-Diver operations (this was due concern over poor maintenance of the stripes causing loss of performance) - by which time the Diver threat was all but over. I've not seen photos which show stripes were removed. Photos do show that that 2ndTAF fighters carried them until the end of hostilities and beyond. Not sure after that ....

Chris

Thanks everybody for sharing your knowledge - and what knowledge! I have learned so much in the few months I have been frequenting this site.

Best regards.

Neil

[Hepster]

According to "Wrecks & Relics" (a bible no self-respecting researcher should be without) she's on loan from the RAF Museum; when I saw her, years ago, while still at Cosford, I noted that her "E" wing had no outer .303" panels (redundant, or otherwise,) and there doesn't appear to be a rear fuel tank, either.

Edgar

For most low-back Spits with 'E' type wings, the outer .303 access panels were not redundant, as the pneumatic system air bottles were located there, attached to brackets in the former gun positions.

This makes research a bit more difficult, because you rarely see the top of the wings in photos.

[Edgar]

For most low-back Spits with 'E' type wings, the outer .303 access panels were not redundant, as the pneumatic system air bottles were located there, attached to brackets in the former gun positions.

Also two oxygen bottles (in the XVI, at least.) This is the XIVe (below,) however, has no outer panels, but it has no fuselage fuel tank either. If you look at photos of XVIs, the headrest has a second piece of armour a few inches behind it, and they sandwich the filler neck for the fuel tank, while this XIVe doesn't have it. There follows the intriguing question - how many low-back XIVs did have the fuel tank?

Edgar

Edited January 30, 2012 by Edgar