Spitfire FR.MkXIVe

[phat trev]

Can anyone help answer what RAF Squadrons used the Spitfire FR.MkXIVe (lowback) in Europe (1944-45)

[Edgar]

None in 1944; it wasn't released for Service use until 1945.

I can't find any definite proof of any being used, in Europe before VE-day, either. 11 & 17 (June 45,) and 20 (Sep, 45) used them in the Far East. 136, 152, 155, 273, & 607, also Far East, were post-VJ-day. The nearest is 412, who might have had them in Europe, but from June 1945. Other Squadrons might have had them mixed in with "normal" XIVs, but that would need a voyage of hope, through every ORB, praying that the I.O. made a note of the different Marks, and that has often turned into a forlorn hope.

Edgar

[gingerbob]

I can't find any definite proof of any being used, in Europe before VE-day, either.

I can. I'll report back later (maybe 12 hours or so). By then Colin Ford will probably have already done it.

bob

[John M]

Both 402 Sqn & 414 Sqn (RCAF) were using 'low back' FR.XIVe's before VE Day.

402 Sqn examples:

MV302 AE*A

MV310 AE*C

NH905 AE*N

414 Sqn examples:

MV348 - S

NH648 - P

402 Sqn (RCAF) was also using 'low back' F.XIVe's during the same time period.

The 'low back' F.XIVe's all had 'normal' full span wings and had the fuselage roundel placed further forward than seen on the 'low back' F.R.XIVe's.

402 Sqn examples:

NH744 AE*Z - shot down by flak 14/04/45 - S/L Laubman POW

MV252 AE*Q

MV256 AE*K - CO's a/c (White rudder) - S/L Gordon

MV258 - shot down by flak 25/03/45 - S/L Moore KIA

MV265 AE*I

Hope this helps.

John

Edited January 7, 2011 by John M

[jaw]

Did 2 Sqdn use them at that time?

John

[Dave Fleming]

Both 402 Sqn & 414 Sqn (RCAF) were using \'low back\' FR.XIVe\'s before VE Day.

There is a colour picture of one.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/britain/Spitfire+XIVe.html

Edited January 7, 2011 by Dave Fleming

[Seahawk]

Can't find the photo I worked from at the mo but I've done MV340 "K" of 268 Squadron at Mill (B.89), Holland in April 1945.

[ColFord]

Can anyone help answer what RAF Squadrons used the Spitfire FR.MkXIVe (lowback) in Europe (1944-45)

Once more unto the breach dear friends.......

No.II(AC) Squadron started receiving Mk.XIVs on 1 November 1944, first serial being recorded in the ORBs being RM805 - which according to "the bible" (Morgan & Shacklady) is a high back F Mk.XIVe. By 18 November 1944 they had nine of them and the Squadron made its first operational sorties using the type. The ORBs record the arrival of the first of the low back FR.XIVes on 12 April 1945. Sorties using the new FR.XIVes appear to start pretty promptly.

No.268 Squadron started receiving its FR.XIVes on 5 April 1945, the first two being received being NH641 and NH643, which according to the ORBs were low backed FR.XIVes, which tallies with "the bible". Two more on April 12, 1945 and the rest on April 19, 1945. The Squadron did however keep on using its Mustang Mk.IA and Mk.II aircraft as its main operational type. First operational use of the FR.XIVes is recorded on April 19, 1945, part of the delay being whilst some 'glitches' with the armament was sorted out. Use after that slowly builds up in the remaining days until VE-Day to where a couple of the pairs sorties per day would be on the Spitfire FR.XIVes, the balance, especially the longer ranging sorties, on the Mustangs.

After VE-Day use of the Spitfires ramps up dramatically so that the Spitfire becomes the primary operational type, with the remaining Mustangs winding down by August 1945.

MV316 K, photographed at B.106 Twente, it was not delivered to the Squadron until April 19, after the Squadron had moved there from Mill on April 17, 1945. Tie up of serial and code comes from ORBs cross referenced against pilot's log book entries. Squadron had one operational loss of a FR.XIVe, NH313, on May 3, 1945 - hit by flak, caught fire, pilot bailed out and returned safe to base the following day being somewhat the worse for wear after being plied with "medicinal rum" by the Canadian forward units into whose position he landed.

There are some photos in 2TAF, including some of the Squadron's Spitfires in late 1945 after they had been renumbered as No.16 Squadron.

Regards,

Edited January 7, 2011 by ColFord

[Test Graham]

607 did not receive Griffon Spitfires in the Far East. They did receive a few FR Mk.XIVE when reformed in the UK postwar.

[Seahawk]

MV316 K, photographed at B.106 Twente, it was not delivered to the Squadron until April 19, after the Squadron had moved there from Mill on April 17, 1945. Tie up of serial and code comes from ORBs cross referenced against pilot's log book entries.

Now I delve into it a bit deeper, MV340 wasn't even a valid serial, lying in a "black-out block". Argh! And I was so pleased to find (apparently) a coded low-back FR.XIVe in use before war's end. Ah, well, we're all better informed now. Thanks, Colin.

[gingerbob]

Well, here I am and my prediction has come true. Here's what I can add: (note that there is slight disagreement with Colin's info, but not much- I chose not to edit mine after reading his.)

268 begins to re-equip in February (or maybe they were expecting to)- they’d been on Typhoon FR and either still had or again got some Allison Mustangs as well.

Their ORB comments:

19/4/45 One of the sorties was flown for the first time by this sqn in Spitfire XIVB aircraft.

3/5 NH313 (actually MV313, I believe- the ORB records it correctly sometimes, and incorrectly other times) force landed friendly territory following engine failure (written off) -and yet the ORB doesn’t record any sorties that day- maybe just out for a scenic tour over enemy territory?!

There were at least 10 different serials recorded as flying ops before VE day- maybe a couple more unless they are erroneous serials.

2 and 414 began to get them in April (2 had been flying high back “FR.XIV”s, 414 had FR.IXs.

Interestingly, 2 Sqn records sorties on 10/4 with two (NH641, NH643) “on loan from 268 Sqn”- before 268 has flown one on ops. In fact, 641 was one of the two that flew 268’s first op. On 13th the first additional serials (on 2 Sqn) are given. By the way Col, I mean no offense by using "2"!

414’s ORB:

4/4/45 First Spit XIV FR with tear drop hood arrived from the UK. Pilots eager to have balance arrive and convert.

12/4 used on ops for the first time

from 26/4 no more FR.IXs are listed on ops

They recorded 16 FR.XIV and an Auster V on strength at end of the month.

2/5 A red letter day- F/L DI Hall, DFO, returning from a mission, encountered enemy a/c and in the ensuing combat destroyed 3 Fw-190 and 1 Me-108 (?) and damaged 1 Fw-190 and 1 Me-108 (NH640). S/L Prendergast, DSC, encountered 10+ e/a and destroyed 2 Fw-190s

bob

p.s. I meant to say, nice observation John M about the visual clues for F vs FR low backs. Only 27 were built as straight fighters. I think that 41 Sqn got some low-backs too, but haven't chased that down. 402 did not make any mention or distinction of them in their ORB.

Edited January 16, 2011 by gingerbob

[phat trev]

Some good infomation thanks all ! I really need to get a look at these 2TAF books they keep croping up in discussions on BM and sound really good.

[gingerbob]

Oh, they're worth if for the model subject inspiration alone! ...but there's a whole lot more in them than that.

bob

[Miggers]

So that FR.XIV that used to be in Cosford and is now(AFAIK)in storage at Shawbury is a bit of a rare bird then?

Mark

[ColFord]

Well, here I am and my prediction has come true. Here's what I can add: (note that there is slight disagreement with Colin's info, but not much- I chose not to edit mine after reading his.)

268 begins to re-equip in February (or maybe they were expecting to)- they’d been on Typhoon FR and either still had or again got some Allison Mustangs as well.

Their ORB comments:

19/4/45 One of the sorties was flown for the first time by this sqn in Spitfire XIVB aircraft.

3/5 NH313 (actually MV313, I believe- the ORB records it correctly sometimes, and incorrectly other times) force landed friendly territory following engine failure (written off) -and yet the ORB doesn’t record any sorties that day- maybe just out for a scenic tour over enemy territory?!

There were at least 10 different serials recorded as flying ops before VE day- maybe a couple more unless they are erroneous serials.

2 and 414 began to get them in April (2 had been flying high back “FR.XIV”s, 414 had FR.IXs.

Interestingly, 2 Sqn records sorties on 10/4 with two (NH641, NH643) “on loan from 268 Sqn”- before 268 has flown one on ops. In fact, 641 was one of the two that flew 268’s first op. On 13th the first additional serials (on 2 Sqn) are given. By the way Col, I mean no offense by using "2"!

Bob,

Good pickup on NH313. The job of "ORB keeper" was rotated amongst the junior pilots and was therefore done well enough to meet the Flight Commander's and OC's standards. I've had to do a lot of cross checking against aircraft record cards, the Wing ORBs and pilot's log books, but the occasional one still "sneaks thru to the keeper" (maybe not an analogy I should use at this time??)

3 May 1945, disagree, ORB records:

“A Shipping Reconnaissance in the KIEL –LUBECK area was very fruitful. Ten 10,000 tonners, two landing craft full of troops, a very large convoy and several 5000 ton vessels were sighted. The position, speed of movement and their direction afforded some very useful information to coastal command who laid on a highly successful strike which resulted in the destruction of nearly all the larger craft. F/O R.B. MUMFORD, whilst flying on a TAC/R – WIESEDE – MUNSEN – BREMERHAVEN – ELSFLETH had the misfortune to be hit by a heavy concentration of flak which caused his engine to catch fire. Fortunately he managed to bale out over our own lines and rejoined the Squadron the following day.” Flying activity confirmed in 35 Wing ORBs and pilot's log book entries.

No.268 Squadron, a lot of poor information out there on what aircraft they had when. From mid-January 1944 when they returned to southern England from their period 'on rest' at Turnhouse in Scotland, were equipped with Mustang Mk.IA aircraft. Pilot's log book entries indicate last couple of Mustang Mk.IAs still with Squadron early August 1945.

Hawker Typhoons, they had access to on average one Typhoon from mid 1943, which was used by pilot's to familiarise themselves with the type and to practice an early form of dis-similar type air to air combat, the Typhoon being used to 'play' a FW-190 for bouncing and air to air combat practice. They did not take that aircraft with them when they went 'on rest' in October 1943, so were without a Typhoon for some time. They then receive their first standard Typhoon Mk.Ib on 2 July 1944 in preparation for receiving Typhoon FR.Ibs. They received three more the following days, all of which are recorded as being well used aircraft with poor serviceability. On top of which they were flying flat out operationally so they had to squeeze in Typhoon conversion flying when they could. Generally the Typhoons were not well received for the Tac/R role. Around July 20, 1944 we start to see first references in pilot's log books to test flights in Typhoons equipped with cameras and debugging of the camera installations. First recorded operational use of the Typhoon FR.1bs was on August 8, 1944. Effectively, the Typhoons only ever equip one flight in the Squadron, the other two flights remaining on Mustang Mk.IAs. From early October 1944 the Squadron starts lending Typhoons to No.4 Squadron and winding down its use of the Typhoon. October 17, 1944, Squadron advised Typhoons to be withdrawn and replaced by Mustang Mk.IIs. Much celebration by pilot's at that news. Last operational sortie flown flown by Squadron on Typhoons on November 19, 1944.

First entry of pilot's conducting familiarisaton flights on Mustang Mk.II aircraft on November 13, 1944. Initial Mustang Mk.IIs come from No.II(AC) Squadron, later supplemented by new issue aircraft. First operational use of Mustang Mk.IIs recorded on November 16 1944. Initially the Mustang Mk.IIs make up one flight of the Squadron, with the other two being Mk.IAs. By January 1945 it is about half and half Mk.IAs and Mk.IIs. By the time the Spitfires arrive in April 1945 it is about one third Mk.IAs and two thirds Mk.IIs. The Squadron keeps a number of Mustang Mk.IA and Mk.II aircraft operating alongside the Spitfires up until VE-Day and beyond - effectively a mix flight. The last of the Mustangs are returned, very reluctantly to the UK, in August 1945. From when the Squadron first received its Mustang Mk.Is on April 18, 1942 until it relinquished the last Mustangs in mid-August 1945, the Squadron had 40 months of continuous use of Allison engined Mustangs of one mark or another.

Information on Spitfires is as per previous post, taken from ORBs and confirmed by pilot's log book entries, plus cross checking other sources such as aircraft record cards, "the bible" etc.

In early September 1945 the Squadron receives a flight of Spitfire PR.XIXs from the disbanded No.16 Squadron, and on September 19, 1945, No.268 Squadron is renumbered as No.16 Squadron and No.487(RNZAF) Squadron on Mosquito FB.VIs is also renumbered, initially, as No.16 Squadron, but retroactively is then renumbered as No.268 Squadron. The 'new' No.16 Squadron (ex-268) remains in being until it too is disbanded in early 1946 and the No.16 Squadron number being passed to what had been No.56 Squadron. When No.16 Sqdn, (ex-268) was disbanded in early 1946, a lot of the pilots moved over to No.II(AC) Squadron, under the command of an ex-268 alumni.

Since I am not using other than No.II(AC) Squadron, my good friend who was "boss" of "Shiny Two" can not be angry with me

I can heartily recommend the four volume 2TAF set, not just for its depth of coverage, but the inspiration for so many modelling subjects for those interested in aircraft of this particular era.

Regards,

[gingerbob]

So that FR.XIV that used to be in Cosford and is now(AFAIK)in storage at Shawbury is a bit of a rare bird then?

Mark

What do you mean, Mark? Is it a veteran of operations?

bob

[Gary C]

I really need to get a look at these 2TAF books they keep croping up in discussions on BM and sound really good.

Yep, well worth investing in, absolute goldmine of information, if you like that sort of thing

[Miggers]

What do you mean, Mark? Is it a veteran of operations?

bob

Not sure if it's got many ops on it's logbook Bob.

It was definitely a low-back FR.XIVc or e,it had a camera port aft of the cockpit.

Painted in TLS of green/grey uppers with light grey undersides and C1 roundels,no squadron markings at all,just

it's serial in the usual place.

I meant that by the sounds of things,there weren't that many built,so that particular a/c(last heard of as in store at Shawbury)

may be a bit of a rarity amongst Spits.

I'll do a bit more research and see if I can find anymore about it and it's present location.

Mark

[Miggers]

Here she is Bob.

MT847.

http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photo/388914.html

She's an FR.XIVe with clipped wings.

Not sure about her present whereabouts though except for that I last heard she'd gone into storage at Shawbury.

Mark

[gingerbob]

I meant that by the sounds of things,there weren't that many built,so that particular a/c(last heard of as in store at Shawbury)

may be a bit of a rarity amongst Spits.

I'll do a bit more research and see if I can find anymore about it and it's present location.

Thanks for the info, and clarification.

The really rare ones were the straight-fighter low back XIVs- Vickers gives these totals:

500 high backs (some c's, some e's- all the rest are e armament)

27 low back fighters

430 FR.XIV (low back- the high back modded XIVs are included in the 500)

200 FR.XVIII

100 F.XVIII

bob

I'd be happy to have it in my garage...

Edited January 9, 2011 by gingerbob

[Edgar]

MT847.

She's an FR.XIVe with clipped wings.

Not sure about her present whereabouts though except that I last heard she'd gone into storage at Shawbury.

Manchester Museum of Science and Industry.

[J.D.]

Manchester Museum of Science and Industry.

Well spotted!

http://emu.msim.org.uk/web/objects/common/...ia.php?irn=6576

[Miggers]

Yes,well spotted Edgar.

I didn't know that was where she'd gone.

Don't know whether she's on loan though,donated or even sold.

Tell you what though,I always think a IX/XVI highback with a VIII rudder and a clipped wing looks

like it means buisness,but a big Griffon lowback is entirely something else.

Mark

[Edgar]

According to "Wrecks & Relics" (a bible no self-respecting researcher should be without) she's on loan from the RAF Museum; when I saw her, years ago, while still at Cosford, I noted that her "E" wing had no outer .303" panels (redundant, or otherwise,) and there doesn't appear to be a rear fuel tank, either.

Edgar

Edited January 9, 2011 by Edgar

[Seahawk]

Now I delve into it a bit deeper, MV340 wasn't even a valid serial, lying in a "black-out block". Argh! And I was so pleased to find (apparently) a coded low-back FR.XIVe in use before war's end. Ah, well, we're all better informed now. Thanks, Colin.

The erroneous equation of 268 Squadron's FR.XIVe "K" to MV340 comes from JDR Rawlings' "Coastal, Support and Special Squadrons of the RAF", both text and photo caption. The serial isn't legible in the photo but I obviously figured I could trust Rev Rawlings. Ah, well: who never made a mistake never made anything.