T-45 Goshawk from Hawk Mk-120 ?

[Tonka]

I would like to know if is possible using the Airfix 1/48 BAe Hawk Mk.120.(South African Air Force) kit to represent decently

from the box the T-45 Goshawk used by US NAVY ?

If not what details I must add to that kit or remove ?

Are the ejection seats the same for both ?

Thank You and Good Luck.

Tonka

[AnonymousFO98]

Guess you could, in theory do so.

From what I can recall

Totally different front leg, with twin wheel.

Lateral fuselage perforated airbrakes replace the single dorsal brake.

Pair of tail plane Lerx type thingies (technical term)

not sure what ealse off the top of my head.

[andy wood]

....full span slats

straight leading edge on wings

squared off tips on wings and tail

deepened nose contors to take twin wheel nose gear

To be honest, apart fron the landing gear, noting a bit of plasticard, filler and scribing could'nt fix

[Ali62]

Hi Tonka

We have recently found out that there is at least 1 maybe 2 1/48 scale kits coming fairly soon, and due to the very different airframe I would just wait if I was you.

cheers Ali

see here

[SimonR]

Hi Tonka,

Heres a 1/72 scale Italieri kit I built a couple of years ago for reference, like the guys have said the front landing gear (among other things) is completely different, not sure how accurate the Italieri kit is, I built it OOB, I have heard since I built it that it needs some mods.

Cheers

Smon

[arnobiz]

This looks very much like the real one, I would be very satisfied with it

[thx6667]

I would like to know if is possible using the Airfix 1/48 BAe Hawk Mk.120.(South African Air Force) kit to represent decently

from the box the T-45 Goshawk used by US NAVY ?

Nope!

If not what details I must add to that kit or remove ?

As the saying goes, jack up windscreen and fit new aircraft. The combat wing of the 120 is nothing like that fitted to the Goshawk. You'd have to mod so much of the kit... its doable but in much the same way as you could convert a Spitfire to a Hurricane with enough willpower and Milliput.

A better starting point would be the Italeri T-45 kit but even with that you're looking at major mods to the fuselage and wings, fin/rudder and undercarriage.

I would not be surprised if a proper T-45 kit surfaces in 2011.

Edited December 10, 2010 by Jonathan Mock

[redfoxy]

This looks very much like the real one, I would be very satisfied with it

The model SimonR built was modelled on one of the development aircraft, it still has the Hawk wing without the modified wingtips and leading edge slats.Regards Paul.

[Jennings Heilig]

To be honest, apart fron the landing gear, noting a bit of plasticard, filler and scribing could'nt fix

Except for the canopy, just about everything else on a T-45 is massively different from a Hawk. The real airplanes have somewhere in the neighborhood of about 15% parts commonality - including internal parts.

The entire wing is different. The main gear is in a different place on the wing, the gear itself is totally different. Wheels/tires are totally different. Flaps and flap fairings are different. Believe me, this has been hashed to death on other boards. I suppose it *is* possible, but then you could convert a 727 into a P-51 if you really wanted to I guess. It's just a matter of how much work you're willing to put into it.

On the other hand, if you did successfully do it, that would strongly encourage some injection molded kit manufacturer to do one, so by all means, full steam ahead!

J

[xffw45343tg]

Except for the canopy, just about everything else on a T-45 is massively different from a Hawk.

Tailplane looks the same...as does the APU cover.

It's got to be easier than starting with a Spifire.

[Tailspin Turtle]

No where near as hard as converting Renwal's Visible Woman into an F-14. Good luck. Take pictures and post them when you're done...

[Gabe Pincelli]

Tailplane looks the same...as does the APU cover.

It's got to be easier than starting with a Spifire.

The tailplane on the protoptype was the same. It is now extended and squared off. You guys are right though - it would be easier to start with a 120 than to start with a Spitfire or Renwall's Visible Woman!

See below for a slightly updated cut-n-paste of what I previously posted (here and on ARC) on what it would take to make a 1/48th Hawk look like a Goshawk. It's just my take (as a current T-45 instructor pilot, modeler, and avid Hawk/Goshawk enthusiast). Certain modifications may, or may not be as important to certain modellers, but it is a fairly comprehensive list.

Please note that this is a "quick" list of the major stuff that would be obvious on a model and is not fully representative of the differences between the actual aircraft.

-New nose wheel (modified F/A-18 nose wheel would be a place to start) The actual wheel has the same diameter and bolt pattern as a Hornet nosewheel but is much more narrow and has a much smaller tire.

-Entire nose section forward of the wing leading edge is deeper and the nose itself is more round. The bottom of the deepened nose actually angles down from where the wing leading edge meets the nose section (There's actually a pretty big seem there on the real jet since the whole wing can be removed) and reaches maximum depth where the nose wheel drag brace meets the fuselage. Italeri captured the forward fuselage shape pretty well in their 1/72 kit. It’s quite obvious if you put it side-by-side with their Hawk T.1 kit. The top profile of the nose forward of the windscreen is the same as a Hawk, but the tip is more rounded due to the deeper bottom profile.

-New main landing gear. Bigger, thicker, longer...basically completely redesigned.

-Bigger wheels. Actually, the wheels may not really be much bigger, but they are obviously different and the tires are bigger.

-Main landing gear attachment points moved outboard approx 10 inches.

-Main gear doors completely different in shape. Note: The big main and nose gear doors close after extending the gear, but they are usually seen open after the jet is shut down at home since maintenance personnel open the main and nose wheel doors to do the turn-around inspection. When stopped at a field other than home field, they are usually left closed.

-Wing leading edge is slightly more swept than Hawk and wingtips are squared off to accommodate the slats(make the leading edge a straight line from the point 1/8" forward of where the Hawk wing meets the fuselage and tangent to the existing curved wingtip then square off the tip) The Hawk has a crank in the leading edge near the root but the T-45 does not (except for the prototype). Making the leading edge straight from the root takes the crank out and increases the sweep enough to look right to me.

-Leading edge slats (we park the T-45 with them up so just scribing the slat would be the easy way to go). The flaps bleed down fairly quickly after shut down, so slats up and flaps down is the most common condition on deck.

-Add the ventral fin, hook attachment fairing and tailhook. (most of this would be pretty easy with some styrene stock, and a shortened Monogram FA-18 tailhook would be convincing enough).

-Add speedbrakes to the fuselage sides. (They are not recessed, but actually just lay flat against the fuselage sides when retracted, so some sheet styrene cut to shape with the slots opened up would work OK).

-Extend and square off the horizontal stab tips. (8 scale inches or so).

-Extend the vertical stab tip approx 10 scale inches.

- The Neomega Hawk cockpit would look close enough to aT-45A for anyone but an actual T-45 pilot. The T-45C has two MFD's in place of the gauges.

-Martin Baker SJU-17 NACES seats. I think the Black Box ones for the late model Hornet look pretty close, although I haven't seen the Quickboost ones in person. They may be better.

I'm sure I left some stuff out, but that should cover the big stuff.

Comparing a 1/72 Italeri Hawk with an Italeri T-45 is actually a great reference for the landing gear, doors, forward fuselage shape and tailhook attach fairing. The Italeri T-45 is actually quite accurate for a prototype, but ONLY accurate for a prototype because it doesn't have any of the aerodynamic mods. (slats, wingtips, extended horizontal stab tips, extended vertical stab, ventral fin, etc)

In case you're wondering: NO, I haven't completed these mods on a kit of my own. I have a pretty good start on modifying an Airfix Hawk T1. I am currently trying to finish this one gear-up to display the Centennial scheme I designed for TW-2.

By the way, my take on the Collect Aire kit is that it falls far short of portraying a convincing T-45. It looks more like a Hawk with square wingtips to me. The deeper forward fuselage and nose shape in addition to other mods weren't captured very well. I offered CA my assistance when they announced that they were developing the kit back in 1999 or so and they turned me down. Too bad. I think they could've had a real winner with just a bit more research. I have the kit and will use the photo etched fret for the speed brakes and a few other details on my gear-up Airfix conversion. Don't know what to do with the rest.

The good news (and the reason my Airfix won't be gear-down) is that we have at least one, possibly two major manufacturers developing a Goshawk kit as we speak. I have been in contact with one of them and we have the potential to have an accurate 1/48th T-45 by the end of 2011.

Hope this helps guys!

Cheers,

Gabe

P.S. If I were you, Tonka, I would start with a T1 though. Would be much closer to the shape of the T-45 to start with as the T-45 nose has nothing in common with the 100 series nose.

[Julien]

The Italeri T-45 is actually quite accurate for a prototype, but ONLY accurate for a prototype because it doesn't have any of the aerodynamic mods. (slats, wingtips, extended horizontal stab tips, extended vertical stab, ventral fin, etc)

Hope this helps guys!

Cheers,

Gabe

Thanks for those tips as I have the Italeria Kit to do.

Have you any pics to illustrate the mods needed or is it just better to study the T045 pics available on line?

Julien

[Gabe Pincelli]

Thanks for those tips as I have the Italeria Kit to do.

Have you any pics to illustrate the mods needed or is it just better to study the T045 pics available on line?

Julien

This pic does a pretty good job at showing the scquared off wingtips and horizontal stabs. Also, if you compare this to a similar pic of any Hawk you will notice the slightly increased sweep of the leading edge. Also that it is completely straight whereas the Hawk has a "kink" near the root. The leading edge meets the fuselage further forward than on a Hawk as well:

This one too:

And this one:

Here are a couple pics of the taller vertical stab:

Ventral fin:

Wingtips showing navigation light configuration. Also notice in the second pic where the leading edge meets the fuselage. On a Hawk the leading edge meets the fuselage pretty much at the panel line:

Radar altimeter fairing:

That should cover most of the details you need to change on The Italeri 1/72 T-45 kit. If there is anything specific you would like to see a picture of, please let me know. If I don't already have it, I can have a picture within a day or two!

Cheers,

Gabe

Edited December 13, 2010 by Gabe Pincelli

[andy wood]

Hello Gabe

What is that on the upper mid fuselage? It is just below the anti-collison beacon. Looks like a small LORAN type aerial. Never seen that before

Andy

[xffw45343tg]

Gabe, you've just doubled the number of useful T-45 pictures on the internet.

[Gabe Pincelli]

Hello Gabe

What is that on the upper mid fuselage? It is just below the anti-collison beacon. Looks like a small LORAN type aerial. Never seen that before

Andy

Andy,

I think you're looking at a skin doubler. The Goshawk has several doublers and stiffeners all over the airframe that have been added over the years to compensate for unanticipated airframe fatigue.

Gabe

Gabe, you've just doubled the number of useful T-45 pictures on the internet.

Glad I could help! Let me know if there's anything specific that you need a picture of.

Gabe

[thx6667]

Wow. and then... wow.

This underside shot does show how the Goshawk's wider forward fuselage is almost a continuous straight line right before the the nose rather than the gentle swell and taper of the original Hawk.

Edited December 13, 2010 by Jonathan Mock

[SimonR]

Great Pics Gabe, I thought the kit I did needed some mods but didn't realise the production aircraft was quite so different!

Edited December 13, 2010 by SimonR

[AnonymousER99]

Hi all,

I have a huge walkaround of the Goshawk from when Gabe came out and visited me. I will be happy to post some up. Many of them are being used to help in production with one of the upcoming new 1/48 kits.

[andy wood]

Andy,

I think you're looking at a skin doubler. The Goshawk has several doublers and stiffeners all over the airframe that have been added over the years to compensate for unanticipated airframe fatigue.

Gabe

Glad I could help! Let me know if there's anything specific that you need a picture of.

Gabe

Thanks for clarifying that Gabe and I also appreciate the photos

[redfoxy]

Hello Gabe

What is that on the upper mid fuselage? It is just below the anti-collison beacon. Looks like a small LORAN type aerial. Never seen that before

Andy

Exactly what Gabe said, they are titanium doublers fitted in certain places for strenthening.we fitted two on the underside of the leading edge closing skins. I've burnt a few drills out on those, and blunted a few countersink cutters. Regards Paul.