E.D.Mackie's Tempest SN228 (EDM) - wing roundels

[DominikS]

Hi Everyone!

I'm currently building Mackie's Tempest V and I have a problem. I wanna use Xtradecal set but I'm not sure about wings upper surface roundels. According to Xtradecal they are without yellow edge. But there's a but...According to only photo of this plane I have (Osprey's AotA) they should have it. Is there a possibility that at the beginning these roundels didn't have the yellow edge?

Maybe someone has more photos of Mackie's Tempest SN228. I'd be very grateful for some.

Cheers

Dom

[ben_m]

It would depend on the date: before January 1945, it wouldn't have had the yellow borders on the upper or lower wing roundels, after January 1945 it would have had (with some fuzziness depending on the exact date that aircraft was painted).

Sometimes the Tempests had re-sized roundels on the upper surfaces when the order to add the yellow came- instead of just adding the yellow border to the existing roundel, a few aircraft seem to have had the roundel re-painted to match the fuselage roundels.

[Chris Thomas]

There are a few other photos of SN228 when it was Mackie's aircraft, however none that I have seen show the upper wing roundels.

As Ben says, the outer yellow ring on 2ndTAF aircraft wing roundels dated from January 1945. Mackie flew SN228/EDM from 3 May 45 to 12 October 1945 so it certainly would have had the yellow rings when he first flew it. The yellow outer rings were gradually removed after hostilities, but this does not seem to have been done quickly as they are still evident in photos of other 2ndTAF/BAFO aircraft through 1945 and into 1946.

CT

[alvin5182]

Gents:

Chris would know better, but the old Almark set C12 " I.P.M.S. 25th year special issue" shows SN228 circa "late April '45 with the yellow outer rings on the upper wings and gloss black wing tanks. NO photo tho.

Alvin5182

[DominikS]

So, I'll put roundels with yellow outer rings. Yet, what was the size? The same as on fuselage or bigger?

[alvin5182]

Dom:

the Almark sheet has the fuselage roundels at about 12mm and the upper wings as 19mm in size. (72nd scale)

Alvin5182

[Mike Starmer]

Hold on a moment. Yellow surrounds to upperwing roundels were NOT specified. The January 1954 AMO states reversion to C type roundel by converting the existing B type. Not applicable to Bomber Command and intruder/nightfighters of Fighter Command or aircraft in SEA Command. Changes as follows: -

1) Existing outer diameter of Blue remains the same; NO White or Yellow outline.

2) Outerside diameter of White inner colour to be 1/2 of that of Blue.

3) Diameter of Red centre to be 3/8 of existing Blue.

The fact that photographs do show upper wing roundels does not indicate that they were mandatory, merely unit applied unofficial additions against AMOs.

[wally7506]

2nd TAF vol 3 pps 526-7

CLEARLY shows C1 (that is to say YELLOW surround) on the UPPER and LOWER wings for TWO of Mackie's Tempests.

NV700:W2-A (21 Mar 1945)

and for

SN228:EDM (Summer 1945).

When it comes to late war C and C1 type roundels on wings it's not only a question of when, but where and who. The 2nd TAF adopted C1 type roundels toward the end of the war (not sure of the exact date, but some are seen in pictures taken as early as December 1944! -- by January it was widespread) while at the same time Coastal Command Mosquitoes and Beaufighters in Scotland were wearing C type roundels (no yellow).

To further muddy the water, Fighter Command Spitfires (for instance) had the standard B-type roundels on the upper wings in March/April 1945 as well as Bomber Command Lancasters, Halifaxes, etc.

[tonyot]

Hold on a moment. Yellow surrounds to upperwing roundels were NOT specified. The January 1954 AMO states reversion to C type roundel by converting the existing B type. Not applicable to Bomber Command and intruder/nightfighters of Fighter Command or aircraft in SEA Command. Changes as follows: -

1) Existing outer diameter of Blue remains the same; NO White or Yellow outline.

2) Outerside diameter of White inner colour to be 1/2 of that of Blue.

3) Diameter of Red centre to be 3/8 of existing Blue.

The fact that photographs do show upper wing roundels does not indicate that they were mandatory, merely unit applied unofficial additions against AMOs.

Every unit in 2nd TAF wore yellow surrounds to the roundels above and below the wings during 1945 and even on into 1946-47 so it must have been a local command decision at least (local commanders were allowed to change markings at a local basis depending on operational conditions) , along with painting the spinner black and painting over the Sky fuselage band as apparently USAAF fighters were regularly having a go at 2nd TAF aircraft so the roundels were made more prominent and the bands were removed so that that were not mistaken for German defence of the reich bands. I`ve seen a photo of Makie`s Tempest after the end of hostilities when it had the Wing badge applied to the tail (not 80 Sqns `Bell' badge as some say, but the wing badge which had a triangle as its centre piece) and his `score board' and the roundels were definitely large, ie standard C Type with a yellow outline added, not the smaller type often used......some aircraft even had a large roundel on one wing and a small roundel on the other....suppose it depended on which airmen were doing the job and what they had been told the orders (if any were issued?) said.

Hope that helps and please don`t think I`m being funny Mike as I respect your extensive knowledge on colours and markings,

All the best

Tony O

[Seahawk]

Every unit in 2nd TAF wore yellow surrounds to the roundels above and below the wings during 1945 and even on into 1946-47 so it must have been a local command decision at least (local commanders were allowed to change markings at a local basis depending on operational conditions) , along with painting the spinner black and painting over the Sky fuselage band as apparently USAAF fighters were regularly having a go at 2nd TAF aircraft so the roundels were made more prominent and the bands were removed so that that were not mistaken for German defence of the reich bands. I`ve seen a photo of Makie`s Tempest after the end of hostilities when it had the Wing badge applied to the tail (not 80 Sqns `Bell' badge as some say, but the wing badge which had a triangle as its centre piece) and his `score board' and the roundels were definitely large, ie standard C Type with a yellow outline added, not the smaller type often used......some aircraft even had a large roundel on one wing and a small roundel on the other....suppose it depended on which airmen were doing the job and what they had been told the orders (if any were issued?) said.

Hope that helps and please don`t think I`m being funny Mike as I respect your extensive knowledge on colours and markings,

All the best

Tony O

Painting the spinners black and removing the sky bands was not a local command decision: both changes were promulgated by 2 ATAF wef 3 January 1945, at the same time as the Type C upper wing roundel (which was to apply to all aircraft of the RAF in Europe).

[Chris Thomas]

Hold on a moment. Yellow surrounds to upperwing roundels were NOT specified. The January 1954 AMO states reversion to C type roundel by converting the existing B type. Not applicable to Bomber Command and intruder/nightfighters of Fighter Command or aircraft in SEA Command. Changes as follows: -

1) Existing outer diameter of Blue remains the same; NO White or Yellow outline.

2) Outerside diameter of White inner colour to be 1/2 of that of Blue.

3) Diameter of Red centre to be 3/8 of existing Blue.

The fact that photographs do show upper wing roundels does not indicate that they were mandatory, merely unit applied unofficial additions against AMOs.

I'm holding on, but only briefly ... yellow outer rings to upper (and lower) wing roundels were mandatory in 2nd TAF in accordance with instructions dated 2 January 1945. There had been some debate in the Air Ministry about changes to roundels to make RAF aircraft more easily recognised as such - particularly by 8th USAAF fighters that were prone to attack 2nd TAF aircraft engaged on tactical operations as they returned from escort missions to Germany. 2ndTAF HQ (Air Marshal Conningham) were not convinced that the AM's eventual suggestion of reinstating the inner white ring on upper surface roundels was sufficient and decided to go their own way by adding further yellow outer rings to the upper and lower wing roundels. The work was declared complete by 5 February 1945. The AM continued to quibble about it for some time but eventually backed off as the scheme seemed to be successful and caused no unexpected problems.

There was a lot of variation how the upper wing roundel changes were made. Usually the standard 'B roundel' had 2-inch wide yellow outer rings added and a 2-inch wide white ring added between the blue and red portions; exactly how these rings were placed produced some variation in the proportions of the roundel. Sometimes the upper wing roundels were painted out and replaced by by fuselage sized (36-inch diameter on a Tempest) 'C1 roundel' and the same under the wings. Occasionally aircraft were to be seen with different sizes on each wing (see Spit XVI p.446 2ndTAF Vol.3).

The upper wing roundels on SN228 appear to be standard 50-inch diameter B roundels modified to 54-inch (or thereabouts) C1 roundels.

CT

[tonyot]

Painting the spinners black and removing the sky bands was not a local command decision: both changes were promulgated by 2 ATAF wef 3 January 1945, at the same time as the Type C upper wing roundel (which was to apply to all aircraft of the RAF in Europe).

Thats what I mean....local command decision....ie 2nd TAF decision!........ Tony O

[P_Budzik]

I

Edited January 9, 2018 by P_Budzik