Mark Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 Hi all, So with the suggestion that the Definitive Spitfire Thread be divided into individual marks, here's the Mk.1 thread. The prototype is being discussed as well and that thread is here. Same rules apply and the question is simply this. What is the most accurate way to model the Spitfire Mk.1 in 1/48th scale? As far as development of the Mk.1 goes, let's add that in too. So, please include how best to model the early Mk.1 and the 1a and 1b. One question I do have though, is the Tamiya wing seems to have prominent gun barrels that have been discussed elsewhere. At what point and why were these reduced in length such that they are now hidden inside the wing? Does anyone have accurate plans of the Mk.1 that they can share and also some key dimensions so that the various kits can be compared for accuracy etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 Hi all,So with the suggestion that the Definitive Spitfire Thread be divided into individual marks, here's the Mk.1 thread. The prototype is being discussed as well and that thread is here.Same rules apply and the question is simply this. What is the most accurate way to model the Spitfire Mk.1 in 1/48th scale?As far as development of the Mk.1 goes, let's add that in too. So, please include how best to model the early Mk.1 and the 1a and 1b. HiSpitfire I and Ia are the same thing, there were minor changes made during production. Spitfire IB was armed with cannon. The letter after a Spitfire Mark indicates type of wing fitted, A = 8gun, B= 2x 20mm cannon, 4 x 0.303 MG, C= usually 2 x 20mm cannon, 4 x0.303, but provision made for 4x 20mm cannon. E= 2x 20mm cannon 2x 0.5 cal mg, in the inner cannon portas for the Mk I, in the best Blue Peter tradition, here's one I made earlier...As I said, I bought two of the kits when first released with great anticipation. And I bought a third recently for the markings. However, I was really disappointed!!I think that the shape of the fin is already noted as lacking a more 'roman nose' on the forward edge, but it looks more serious than that to me. The radio hatch behind the cockpit is too rectangular with square corners, and the cockpit access is suspect. The blisters on the top cowling are hardly there, neither are the bulges over the wheels on the wing, and what is there is very undefined. The oil cooler also looks dodgy as does the 'depth' of the troughs within the gullwing. I'm not keen on the 'ribbing' on the ailerons either. But the worst thing to me is that there is no definition/difference between panel lines and the gaps between flying surfaces.The problems with the Tamiya Spit are: 1. a slightly dodgy wing plan which is easily corrected with some sanding, and 2. it's supposed to be a little 'overweight' around the cockpit somewhere.I'd far rather do a bit of sanding than try to replace bits and rescribe lines etc. This is only my opinion however!! If only Airfix had put in as much effort on the 1/48 as on the 1/72 version – now that's a little beauty!! (Panel lines a bit heavy though!)Nick Nick is correct on the radio hatch, but the cockpit access looks fine. For the rest of these details please compare with the walkround linked below.andThe only point in the Airfix kits favour is the cowl profile, which looks a little more typical than Tamiya over the top, it falls down in the poor detail, thick flying surfaces, god-awful separate flaps and the thick, mis-shapen fin. The Devil is in the detail really, though the Airfix nose (inherited from the VB kit) is a major error, too high thrust line, make nose ring too big, and so the spinner(s)the shape of the wing and fuselage are correct, unlike the Tamiya.this was well covered in a thread on Hyperscale by John Adamshttp://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/thre...+Spitfire+Mk-1-relevant pics, but do read the thread.To make things clear those pics were the fix for the Airfix Mk.V and although I don't have that here, I recall I was able to sand off the nose top and reshape it without going through the plastic.Airfix have reshaped the Mk.1 nose slightly so the thrust line/spinner needs to be dropped about .75mm. To those who think this too critical it simply creates the correct top cowl line which has a subtle curve down, towards the front. I suggest that one tapes up the under cowl and temporarily stick on a disc of thin plastic card which is the spinner backplate dia .75 mm lower and blend the nose in to this.I hope that this makes sense.CheersJohn areas sanded in blueThese are John Adams pics from the thread i linked too, but posted here for ease of referenceThe Tamiya kit is not only a bit fat round the cockpit, but also a bit short. ( i have seen build that grafts on an ICM tail before to correct the length)Check against the ICM, and also compare the internal bulkheads with the Tamiya to see how fat the fuselage shape is. The ICM spitfire is generally reckoned to be the best shaped mid period Spifire. see here.So if you build a load of Spitfire, you will notice the change when between Tamiya based and ICM based.http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/spitfir...parisonba_1.htmCorrecting the Tamiya wing also involves rescribing the flaps. The Tamiya kit is very well moulded, and has lovely surface detail, and does fit.March 2015 Edit I had a go at correcting the Tamiya fuselage in this thread http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234968337-two-148-mkvb-spitfires-tamiya-and-airfix-new-spitfire-collection-expansion-project-update-010315/page-3 It is reasonably easy to do, and makes a big difference. Not done the wings as yet.The Airfix kit needs some replacements, which fortunately are alternate parts in other kits, specifically, use the early style rudder and tailplanes from an ICM Spitfire, (it has both types, the later pointy rudder and new mass balanced tail planes used on VIII and later IX's) and replace the Spinner with a spare form the Airfix Hurricane, which has both DeHavilland and Rotol types supplied, use the Dh for the MKI and the Rotol for the MkII (so will be sitting around in spares boxes)Use the Airfix spinner as a sanding back guide.The Airfix ruddder line is in the wrong place, Airfix grey, ICM white. Correct rudder line pencilled in. Blue shows area to be trimmed back at front of fin.note this is only ONE side of the Airfix Rudder compared to the ICM rudder. The tailplanes can be made to fit with plastic card shims.The aileron fabric detail needs toning down a lot!The inner gun ejector port should just be a slot, and the ribbing in the wheel wells is over done. The cockpit cover would be better with a vac, especially if posed open, but I think the Eduard zoom for Tamiya set will fit OK. (I'll find out) The early Spits use the 5 spoke wheel.anyone wanting to do this, I would suggest going here, and right clicking a lot,http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/mark_hay...ndex.php?Page=1The science museum Spitfire, as it's hanging up you get all the underside detail. Note the gaps on the flaps as well. (relevant if use use the Airfix kit as it's a bit gappy)At some point I'll post a build here with relevant mods. Another recent thread was about the correct colour for the cockpit, it seems it was not standard interior grey green, but a bit lighter, a suggestion was made for tamiya XF -71 (Japanese interior green) I just bought some and this look pretty good compared to thread pics posted on the subject.When I get chance I'll take some comparative pics of the Airfix, Tamiya and ICM bits together.HTHT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck1945 Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 There were two editions (at least) of the cannon armed Spitfire I. The first, built in small numbers had only the two cannon, no machine guns. This was disliked in service because when (not if) the guns jammed, the aircraft was useless. The second version came late in 1940 and used what became the 'b' wing with the two outboard machine guns as well as the 20mm cannon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The wooksta V2.0 Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 Definitive? Only if you assume - wrongly - that everyone and their wife build 48th! I, like many modellers build 72nd. Many others build different scales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted November 28, 2010 Author Share Posted November 28, 2010 You're right, please forgive me for thinking the World only models in my own chosen scale, I apologise to all who model in other scales than 1/48th. This thread actually only applies to 1/48th. Unless you want to join in and play too.......? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve N Posted November 29, 2010 Share Posted November 29, 2010 I'm not sure if this is the appropriate place for these, but I thought the folks here might find them interesting. I took them yesterday at the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry. This Spit I is supposedly a Battle of Britain vet. Although I assume the kill markings are spurious, I think the rest of the paint may be original (although obviously the later gray/green scheme.) Sorry about the quality..the lighting in the museum is awful. Cheers! Steve 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted November 30, 2010 Author Share Posted November 30, 2010 Excellent photos and thanks! But is that not a Spitfire Mk.Va? If the colour scheme is accurate I am unaware that the Mk.1s were ever painted Grey/Green. Anyone?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan P Posted November 30, 2010 Share Posted November 30, 2010 (edited) EDIT: sorry, forgot this was an esoteric thread. What happened to the "Delete Post" option? Edited November 30, 2010 by PHaTNesS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheModeller Posted November 30, 2010 Share Posted November 30, 2010 Excellent photos and thanks! But is that not a Spitfire Mk.Va? If the colour scheme is accurate I am unaware that the Mk.1s were ever painted Grey/Green. Anyone?? P9306 from the look of it, a Mk.Ia, served with 74 Sqn during the B-o-B so the paint isn't likely to be truly original to the scheme it was delivered in though it might have been re-painted during the war in those colours when it was transferred to second-line duties with 52 or 61 OTUs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted November 30, 2010 Share Posted November 30, 2010 neat pics. Also note The Ju87B also hanging up. I foolishly did not make it to the Chicago museum when i was there. They have a U-boat too! This Spit I is supposedly a Battle of Britain vet. indeed it is, 74 squadron no less. Excellent photos and thanks! But is that not a Spitfire Mk.Va? If the colour scheme is accurate I am unaware that the Mk.1s were ever painted Grey/Green. Anyone?? "P9306 Ia 508 EA MIII FF 19-1-40 24MU 24-1-40 74S 6-7-40 shot down by Bf109E damaged Bf109E and 2 Bf110s P/O PCF Stevenson 54MU 17-7-41 131S 7-41 52OTU 10-41 61OTU CB WA 4-5-43 Extant Chicago Museum of Science and Industry USA" see - http://www.spitfires.ukf.net/ lists all the Spitfires built. No, also a Va would have a circular oil cooler. Colours? well, it's a museum plane, but it served later with an operational training unit, so would have been repainted in standard day fighter colours I think. Given it's history a repaint would be in order.... for a Ia in BoB colours, http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/mark_hay...ndex.php?Page=1 The science museum Spitfire. HTH T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve N Posted November 30, 2010 Share Posted November 30, 2010 I did a bit of Googling: P9306 is a Mk.1A, with five kills to its credit in the BoB (one in the hands of Sailor Malan himself!) After combat, it served with several training units before being presented to the museum in 1944 (hence the later camouflage.) It was simply put on display as-is, and other than occasional cleaning is completely original (although it appears the RAF removed the squadron codes.) Apparently the engine engine was removed for weight considerations, and Mk.V exhausts substituted. SN 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozothenutter Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Major thread revival! As a new owner of the Airfix kit...... what are the best (most accurate) AM sets around? and what was the first Spitfire to achieve a kill during the BoB?(on or after Jul 10). I have been looking on the 'net for days, but cannot find any sutch statistics. what are the best books to get on the Mk.1? is there a list of what mods were made to the Mk.1 with a timeline? (online, in books or on here?) so many questions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lasermonkey Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 The November 1982 issue of Scale Aircraft Modelling has an excellent feature on early Spitfires, including information on markings, camouflage and modifications. It's one of the references I repeatedly go back to. It has to be worth keeping an eye out in eBay for a copy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozothenutter Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 thanks, i'll keep an eye out.......looking for a digital copy aswell.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) Spitfire The History contains a list of the more important mods, with dates, from the VS records. From Mason's Battle Over Britain, on July 10th 609 Sq shot down a Ju87 and a Bf110 in a clash over Portland at about 19:00. The Ju 87 is credited to Crook - possibly DMCrook? In which case it may be possible to track down the serial/code. For detail modelling purposes, possibly the best is still the PSL Guide to making the 1/24th Airfix kit. Edited October 21, 2016 by Graham Boak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozothenutter Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Thanks!....pardon my ignorance...what is a psl guide? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 51 minutes ago, ozothenutter said: Major thread revival! As a new owner of the Airfix kit...... what are the best (most accurate) AM sets around? and what was the first Spitfire to achieve a kill during the BoB?(on or after Jul 10). I have been looking on the 'net for days, but cannot find any sutch statistics. what are the best books to get on the Mk.1? is there a list of what mods were made to the Mk.1 with a timeline? (online, in books or on here?) so many questions! First of all, as Troy pointed out elsewhere, bear in mind that the above discussion is on the "old new" Airfix Mk.I- there has since been a far superior new new one! According to "RAF Fighter Command Victory Claims" (Part One) the first Spitfire kill of 10 July was a Do 17 destroyed "off Winterton" at about 0520 (takeoff time?) and was shared by the following pilots of 66 Squadron: P/O RJ Mathers, Sgt FN Robertson, and P/O CA Cooke There were numerous other claims that day, but that's the earliest time, though a Hurri might have gotten one in just before. I can perhaps find more information, but don't have time to dig right now. As for mods, etc, right here is probably a good place to start, but it'll take some looking around- I don't know of any particular summary in one spot. Better, perhaps, to seek or ask particular questions... bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) Patrick Stevens Ltd as far as I remember. They did a series of books many moons ago on the Spitfire, Me109 etc, mainly tied in with the Airfix 1/24 models http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/psl-classic-aircraft-spitfire-426108398 cheers Glen Edited October 21, 2016 by Glen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozothenutter Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 thanks, i'll keep an eye out.......looking for a digital copy aswell.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 On 30 November 2010 at 10:27 PM, Steve N said: I did a bit of Googling: P9306 is a Mk.1A, with five kills to its credit in the BoB (one in the hands of Sailor Malan himself!) After combat, it served with several training units before being presented to the museum in 1944 (hence the later camouflage.) It was simply put on display as-is, and other than occasional cleaning is completely original (although it appears the RAF removed the squadron codes.) Apparently the engine engine was removed for weight considerations, and Mk.V exhausts substituted. SN If the paint is original then the Sky spinner but Sky Blue fuselage band are important evidence which I hope will not be destroyed by a re-paint. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, ozothenutter said: Major thread revival! As a new owner of the Airfix kit...... what are the best (most accurate) AM sets around? and what was the first Spitfire to achieve a kill during the BoB?(on or after Jul 10). I have been looking on the 'net for days, but cannot find any sutch statistics. what are the best books to get on the Mk.1? is there a list of what mods were made to the Mk.1 with a timeline? (online, in books or on here?) so many questions! If I may, questions that generate questions..... Does the kit need AM? Not much, though this is perhaps the definitive build of the kit http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234986185-148-airfix-new-tool-spitfire-mki-x4382-from-no602-squadron-completed-on-31-10-at-1150-pm/ note use of positive rivets, Yahu IP, HGW belts and an Ultracast seat. The PSL book is good, but very old, from the early 70's. it's this one BTW https://www.amazon.co.uk/Spitfire-Classic-Aircraft-Their-history/dp/0850590825 while not just the Mk.I, here are some books Spitfire - The History is 600 page monster https://www.amazon.co.uk/Spitfire-History-Eric-B-Morgan/dp/0946219109 the older edition, as shown, tends to be cheaper and apparently the drawings are better reproduced. At the risk of heresy, I was a little disappointed, as a large bulk is made up of the complete serial listing, and when I got the book this was available online. see -http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/home.html lists all the Spitfires built. a more user friendly and cheaper guide to Spitfires (not Seafires) is Alfred Price - The Spitfire Story https://www.amazon.co.uk/Spitfire-Story-Dr-Alfred-Price/dp/1854091727 copy for 1p and post will never be regretted. as a "spot something new every time" reference Spitffire At War series, vol 1, 2 and 3 vol 1 and 2 were done as double pack, another bargain 1p and post.. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Spitfire-Complete-Fighting-Alfred-Price/dp/1856480151 they are short recollections along with 100's of photos, often large,and well captioned, the real contents of these books are the photos which are stunning. Digital copies of these are available on bookfi.org, or similar, these are now blocked by UK web providers, though easily accessible if you then use a TOR browser https://www.torproject.org/download/download Though for under six quid total I'd get the books, if you are interested in Spitfires you will never regret buying the two cheapies I list. The Ducimus Camo and markings guide, while old is still an excellent primer, and details the many variations on early Spitfires http://www.boxartden.com/gallery/index.php/Profiles/Camoflage-Markings/01-Supermarine-Spitfire There is a mass of information posted here. I really recommend using google, add britmodeller into the search term, and try adding Edgar, as in the late Edgar Brooks. Edgar researched Spitfire for many years, and Jon Buis has complied a pdf of many of his posts here http://www.jonbius.com/edgar-brooks-spitfire-notes/ which will contain some info. Finally, if you just want to build a model of 'Spitfire X' as bob says, you may want to just ask here, try a search first. But if you want a really well documented BoB Spitfire, then that limits your options as photos are rare from that era. HTH Edited October 21, 2016 by Troy Smith correction 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 56 minutes ago, Troy Smith said: Does the kit need AM? Not much, though this is perhaps the definitive build of the kit http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/59537-the-definitive-spitfire-mk1-thread/ note use of positive rivets, Yahu IP, HGW belts and an Ultracast seat. Your link above refers back to this topic! cheers, Jason, keen to see the definitive build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 gadzooks Jason didn't notice...link corrected above and here http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234986185-148-airfix-new-tool-spitfire-mki-x4382-from-no602-squadron-completed-on-31-10-at-1150-pm/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozothenutter Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 4 hours ago, Troy Smith said: If I may, questions that generate questions..... Does the kit need AM? Not much, though this is perhaps the definitive build of the kit http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234986185-148-airfix-new-tool-spitfire-mki-x4382-from-no602-squadron-completed-on-31-10-at-1150-pm/ note use of positive rivets, Yahu IP, HGW belts and an Ultracast seat. The PSL book is good, but very old, from the early 70's. it's this one BTW https://www.amazon.co.uk/Spitfire-Classic-Aircraft-Their-history/dp/0850590825 while not just the Mk.I, here are some books Spitfire - The History is 600 page monster https://www.amazon.co.uk/Spitfire-History-Eric-B-Morgan/dp/0946219109 the older edition, as shown, tends to be cheaper and apparently the drawings are better reproduced. At the risk of heresy, I was a little disappointed, as a large bulk is made up of the complete serial listing, and when I got the book this was available online. see -http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/home.html lists all the Spitfires built. a more user friendly and cheaper guide to Spitfires (not Seafires) is Alfred Price - The Spitfire Story https://www.amazon.co.uk/Spitfire-Story-Dr-Alfred-Price/dp/1854091727 copy for 1p and post will never be regretted. as a "spot something new every time" reference Spitffire At War series, vol 1, 2 and 3 vol 1 and 2 were done as double pack, another bargain 1p and post.. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Spitfire-Complete-Fighting-Alfred-Price/dp/1856480151 they are short recollections along with 100's of photos, often large,and well captioned, the real contents of these books are the photos which are stunning. Digital copies of these are available on bookfi.org, or similar, these are now blocked by UK web providers, though easily accessible if you then use a TOR browser https://www.torproject.org/download/download Though for under six quid total I'd get the books, if you are interested in Spitfires you will never regret buying the two cheapies I list. The Ducimus Camo and markings guide, while old is still an excellent primer, and details the many variations on early Spitfires http://www.boxartden.com/gallery/index.php/Profiles/Camoflage-Markings/01-Supermarine-Spitfire There is a mass of information posted here. I really recommend using google, add britmodeller into the search term, and try adding Edgar, as in the late Edgar Brooks. Edgar researched Spitfire for many years, and Jon Buis has complied a pdf of many of his posts here http://www.jonbius.com/edgar-brooks-spitfire-notes/ which will contain some info. Finally, if you just want to build a model of 'Spitfire X' as bob says, you may want to just ask here, try a search first. But if you want a really well documented BoB Spitfire, then that limits your options as photos are rare from that era. wow thanks heaps....that was a most comprehensive reply. Another evening lost i'm afraid.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozothenutter Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 Spent tbe evening downloading heaps of info.....that boxart den site is awesome!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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