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The Spitfire Prototype Definitive Thread


Mark

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Have a look in Work in progress under the Rolls Royce Mk 14. That is RR blue and it was after all in their house colours. I had forgotten that it was in those colours and I used to see it regularly over our house when I was a school boy not far from Hucknall.

John

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Have a look in Work in progress under the Rolls Royce Mk 14. That is RR blue and it was after all in their house colours. I had forgotten that it was in those colours and I used to see it regularly over our house when I was a school boy not far from Hucknall.

John

HI John

as in G-ALGT?

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234944307-spitfire-xiv-rm689-g-algt/

Miggers posted these

Just for you gents edification:

14-RM689RollsRoyce-KeithHamsherecol.jpg

14-RM689HucknallKeithHamsherecoll04.jpg

Thanks to Keith Hamshere.

I've got her in 1/72nd done from Airfix's XIX/IX conversion about 60% done to be

finished in this rather fetching scheme.

Looks like low sun angle, so not ideal for colour.

this is the thread John mentions I think

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234922144-spitfire-mk-xiv-g-algt-148-conversion-first-coat-of-blue/

another colour pic from above thread

14-RM689HucknallKeithHamsherecoll031_zps

cheers

T

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Thanks for pursuing it, Troy, but sadly Tim's samples seem to be a cul-de-sac (no, not another early Spitfire interior colour), unless they've radically shifted (all in the same way) since made!

Now, what about that lighter blue on RR's Mk.XIV? Anyone got a sample of that, or documentation of what they used?

bob

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 months later...

Hello,

Since all the photos of the spit proto are in black and white, maybe someone should make a test and put his hands on some of that RR paint that Tim mentioned and take a b/w picture to see how it looks (more exactly how dark or light looks) compared to original photos. Well, you get the ideea.

Eduard

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Regarding the colour matches cited above.

RAL 6004 is indeed a Munsell Blue Green - 5.3 BG 2.5/4.4 - but it is a mid-tone to dark hue of low reflectivity. That converted to Hex # is 01 44 43 and described as 'dark cyan':-

http://www.perbang.dk/rgb/014443/

It does not convince as the pale colour seen in photographs and variously described as 'seaplane grey', 'light blue-grey' or 'French grey'!

FS 24108 is a Munsell Green (FS 4 = green) 2.6 G 3.5/4.0 and the difference from 6004 is 13.1 where < 2.0 = a close match.

The colour chips preserved out of light have probably darkened slightly and if they have a cellulose binder will have yellowed or ambered too. That shift is not always apparent to the eye but does tend to turn pale blues and blue-greys into turquoise blue greens which are then quite difficult to relate to the original colours.

Nick

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I've just posed the RR Blue question to a friend and noted aviation historian with RR connections. and he tells me that there was in existence a RR pattern book which gave all the uses of the RR House colours. Also the comms a/c such as the Monarch and Spitfire and others were painted RR Blue. The early a/c such as Austers of the Merlin Flying club were also in the 'Blue'.

Now I know this is purely speculation, but what if in 1936 a new Supermarine prototype fighter (K5054) with a new RR engine (Merlin) took to the skies painted Blue, and less than twenty years later another new Supermarine prototype fighter (Swift WK198) also fitted with a new RR engine (Avon) was to repeat history by being painted in a similar Blue. Far fetched? There were key people of both companies still at work who would have been involved with both a/c. I'm now looking for good black and white pictures of both these a/c and the replica at Tangmere. The pictures of LGT on this thread were taken in a difficult light but having seen the real a/c it always appeared a very light Blue.

John

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Interesting thought, John. How does that help, though- is the blue of the Swift prototype known? This may be a rather stupid question, but I haven't looked much at the Swift prototype era, so I just don't know any better.

bob

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It is possible that records of the Swift colour application have survived and there are colour photos and film of it at Farnborough. WK198 was actually a Mk.4 and I believe the fuselage is held at the North Eastern Air Museum.. Whether it retains any paint traces I don't know. Google Supermarine Swift and images.

As I said the idea is pure speculation but if the colour of K5054 was, as rumored, Rolls Royce Blue, then this colour, when carried by Rolls Royce owned aircraft, has been colour photographed and I suggest that Swift WK198 may also just have an historical connection to the original event. If this is true then we have a pretty good idea of the blue of the prototype Spitfire. I also have a feeling that the same colour is used on the Rotol badge (again a RR connection). One difficulty in seeing this on line is going to be the different digital variations of screen setups.

John

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WK198 was the F.4 Prototype which broke the air speed record in 1954 in Libya. It is AFAIK at the Brooklands Museum. Before it was in the North East Air Museum but this was closed in 2010 . Before that it was on a scrapyard in Failsworth (near Manchester). But it does not look as if any blue colour is left. It was in a primer (?) yellow colour some years ago.

The idea of the same blues is likely I think (just guessing). I had that thought when I wondered if I should add the Falcon vac kit to my collection to do WK198 sometime the future.

Rene

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This seems like a good place to ask. What is the basis for the "two different paint jobs" idea- a "blue-grey" followed by (?) a bluer Rolls-Royce connected paint? I may have mixed up some of the particulars, but I've certainly seen it suggested that there WERE two generations of "pretty paint". And yet, I don't remember seeing anything really definitive confirming that (which doesn't prove anything, of course).

bob

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Are we referring to the Swift picture? If so the one behind was painted Silver (the Bristol helicopter in the background was polished metal) and that picture is an old colour slide or print. If K5054 did have two paint schemes then the alternative often quoted is Seaplane Grey/ Cream enamel and Supermarine were seaplane builders. However the Tangmere replica is in a Blue so similar to the RR Blue and commended by eye witnesses I think my choice would be for one scheme of RR Blue following my logic.

John

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I've just read an interesting little snippet. Rolls Royce gave Supermarine £7500 towards the development cost of the Spitfire. The Merlin was developed as an engine for the Spitfire and Hurricane that was half way between the Kestrel and the Schneider type 'R' (which was the basis of the Griffon.

" Your new fighter would look nice in our Blue " I wonder if a similar sentence was ever uttered between the various execs.

John

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Interesting- the Swift (see p.2) seems to be a (superficially, by Mk.I eyeball, which could use an overhaul) very close match to the light blue of RR's Spit XIV also on p.2. The K5054 replica appears to have more of an aqua/turquoise quality- a bit more green to it. And THAT seems a very close match to the light blue of Yank's model!

bob

(Note: I selected the above linked image of the replica because it was in natural light, and showed a range of lighting/angles.)

Edited by gingerbob
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I agree the Tangmere replica K5054 has a more turquoise tint and it's worth commenting on that the original of this colour has not been captured on colour film and the replica was produced to a memory with a space of some 60 years.. I presume it was taken with a digital camera.

Without going around the houses again (and again) my hypothesis is this

IF, "K5054 was finished in a Rolls Royce 'car' colour" then I suggest the word 'car' is misleading. Rolls contracted car painters were among the best finishers in the world and I suggest the colour was in fact the RR House colour! Given the close working relationship between the two companies and the financial involvement of RR in the Spitfire project, then i think that this is not too far fetched.

If the colour was the RR House colour then this is what was carried on the later Mk.XIV G-ALGT. By extension of my thinking, then, is it too much of a coincidence that a later Supermarine fighter, the Swift carried the same (or similar) Blue in celebration of the original historic event. The Blues we can see are all on different media and with different lighting conditions so these in themselves can be misleading but I feel that the true blue is the RR House colour spec. Perhaps the clues have been there all along.

John

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I completely follow your logic, John. The fly in the ointment for me is the colour of the replica. (and sorry if I am now starting 'round the houses again!)

The story goes that this was matched to a presentation model that was in the possession of Gordon Mitchell, the model having been (supposedly) painted with the same paint as K5054 at the time. Now, how anyone knows for certain that this is true (that it WAS the same paint) is another question, though Gordon would probably have seen both back then, and might have noticed whether or not they matched. And, of course, it is possible that this colour has aged over time...

It WOULD be interesting to know if there is any anecdotal or other evidence about why the Swift was painted the colour she was.

bob

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I have yet to see the Tangmere Spitfire but looking at various on-line pictures, some look more blue than turquoise. I don't use the reference to memory lightly because when I was at Coningsby in about 1963 we hosted the Fairey Delta 2 for some secret trials over the North Sea and my memory of this a/c's colour is more of a Royal Purple/ Blue than a bright Purple as colour snapshots viewed on the net show. I too made a Frog model of it and I know it wasn't painted quite right. We also have the problem that surely the fullsize paint on a model is going to look somewhat different (or am I incorrect) I might try airing this theory elsewhere to get a wider exposure.

John

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I like your logic John. Why would Supermarine/ Rolls Royce paint another of their prototype aircraft in a different shade pale blue.

At least there should be more recent records relating to the Swift.

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We also have the problem that surely the fullsize paint on a model is going to look somewhat different (or am I incorrect)

I know what you're thinking of (analagous to choosing a paint based on a colour square and then painting a room with it). But that's not a factor if they actually matched the paint. I haven't seen the replica either, alas.

bob

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Interesting- the Swift (see p.2) seems to be a (superficially, by Mk.I eyeball, which could use an overhaul) very close match to the light blue of RR's Spit XIV also on p.2. The K5054 replica appears to have more of an aqua/turquoise quality- a bit more green to it. And THAT seems a very close match to the light blue of Yank's model!

bob

(Note: I selected the above linked image of the replica because it was in natural light, and showed a range of lighting/angles.)

hi all,

i had this problem when i went to see the replica, it was inside with sun shining thru yellowish roof panels and it had an aqua/turquoise look to it. it looks completely different when outside in neutral overcast but bright conditions.

like this, which is a standard vallejo model colour.

p3.jpg

paul

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