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Jaffe284

Hurricane Mk IV - service?

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Hi

Anybody who can fill me in on the service record and units that operated the type, aswell as theater of the Hurricane Mk IV?

Always been facinated by this model, but know little, if nothing, about it's service?

Any help much appreciated

TIA

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Hi,

To my knowledge (I've a project on this specific subject), there was at least No. 352 Squadron RAF, a Yugoslav squadron that used the hurry IV before receiving spitfires.

I'll have a go at one of those with the help of this lifthere decal sheet:

lh_c72_p2.jpg

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6 Squadron used the Mark IV over the Balkans from 1944 onwards and, I think, it continued in service as late as 1946. I'm sure it must have been used by others too - I seem to recall seeing on in Yugoslavian markings.

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Oops!

Forgot to tell that the squadron was operating from Italy on the beautiful Dalmatian coast, east side of the Adriatic.

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Hi

Anybody who can fill me in on the service record and units that operated the type, aswell as theater of the Hurricane Mk IV?

Always been facinated by this model, but know little, if nothing, about it's service?

Any help much appreciated

TIA

the MkIV was originally going to be the IIE but enough changes made a new Mk number. the 'E' wing was a universal wing, capable of mounting rockets, 40mm guns, drop tanks, bomb racks.

Combination's were possible, but when the they tried a 40mm one wing with rockets the other the gun recoil shook the rockets off. One combo that was used was 4 rockets and a drop tank, by 6sq.

It was used in Britain by 137, 164, 184 438, 439, Sq. (Most of these later flew Typhoons.) Some were used for anti-shipping strikes.

In the Balkans it was used by 6 Sq, who had used the IId in the desert, and were still using MkIV's in late 1945, by this point with an overall coat of silver dope, and I think were the last RAF sq to fly Hurricanes.

There are a few famous pics of 6sq MK IV's with the 1 drop tank/4 rockets combination's, in what appears to be dg/og/msg with red spinners. (see Hurricane at War for example)

in the far east, 607sq, and 451 RAAF, 607, 10 Sq IAF, and some others in Burma and India, some here is bound to know more. I think some had cameras fitted.

Apparently some were sent to Russia as well, but I have never seen a pic of a VVS MkIV.

there are 3 surviving MKIV's, one in Belgrade, LD975

800px-Yu_Hurricane.jpg

KZ321 as G-HURY, but flying with IIC wings, http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/luc_coli...ne_mk4_walk.htm this also lack the armoured deeper radiator.

and one in Birmingham, KX829, Thinktank, the Birmingham Museum of Science and Discovery, Millennium Point Discovery Centre, Birmingham

http://www.thinktank.ac/home/default.htm

sadly painted in fake BoB markings, and hanging from the ceiling, annoying as this plane served with 3 RAF sq's in the war. (that is info is not available to me here)

PicHur4.jpg

http://members.madasafish.com/~d_hodgkinso...er-guide-UK.htm list another awaiting restoration.

I'm still trying to get confirmation on what the upper wing panels of the MkIV were like if anyone knows for sure. (i asked the place in B'ham, along with complaining about the fake markings, especially as there are real sq markings for it)

Thye are either like the IIC, 4 panels, or 3 panels, 2 like the larger panels in the IIC between the wing spars, with 1 smaller panel behind the spar for access to the 40mm gun breech (this may be the layout of the IID wing though)

HTH

T

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in the far east, 607sq, and 451 RAAF, 607, 10 Sq IAF, and some others in Burma and India, some here is bound to know more. I think some had cameras fitted.

And 20 Sqn Burma! IID's and IV's. "Deeds Not Words"

20 Sqn Mk IV's SEAC

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607 did serve in the Far East but did not fly Hurricane Mk.IVs. It flew Mk.IIB and Mk.IIC during First Arakan, then converted to Spitfire Mk.VC for Second Arakan and Mk.VIIIs for Imphal and later.

I think that 28 may have been another SEAC user of the Mk.IV. It seems that the Mk.IV was used as a replacement for the Mk.IIB in Hurribomber squadrons.

The Russians received at least one Mk.IV but were understandably not impressed.

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607 did serve in the Far East but did not fly Hurricane Mk.IVs. It flew Mk.IIB and Mk.IIC during First Arakan, then converted to Spitfire Mk.VC for Second Arakan and Mk.VIIIs for Imphal and later.

The Russians received at least one Mk.IV but were understandably not impressed.

The Hawker Hurricane (1962 edition) by Francis K. Mason lists productions batches with sample serial number allocations, which is where i got some of the above squadrons. Of those in question.

Ninth Hawker built batch - 607 Sq, tropical MkIV fighter bomber: KZ729

Eight Hawker built batch: MkIV's to Russia: KX813, KX865, KX888 (believed lost at sea)

451 (RAAF) Squadron, RAF did not serve in the Far East nor did it fly Hurricane IVs.

Ninth Hawker built batch - 451 sq RAAF interception duties at Idku, 10/43 with MkIV's: LB983, LB939. (I guessed Idku was in the Far east, a quick google shows Egypt, sorry for that)

I know the book is old, but Mason worked for Hawker's, anyone know how accurate the above information is?

cheers

T

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The example in Belgrade has replacement P-47D wheels and radiator armor is removed.

Here is a 1/48 Revell (Hasegawa) IIC converted to IVRP with some reference photos by my friend Tomislav Bosnjakovic:

http://www.hrcappuccino.org/articles/recen...ricane%20IV.htm

From the reference pics, the wheel wells have been resprayed RAF grey-green, but looks like they were in Yugoslav grey before (the Yugoslav AF planes were repainted post war in grey uppers and blue undersides, like the Bf109 in the background of the pic I posted)

AFAIK, all Hurricane wheel wells were painted aluminium.

The build is neat, but two points for modellers

1- the door on the port side is an emergency escape panel, not an acces door like the Spitfire, access to the Hurricane is on the other side. To show off cockpit detail suggest removing the panel below the cockpit, as this was frequently seen removed for servicing

2- the prop blades on the Rotol prop are not DeHavilland, but rotol, as correctly shown on the Belgrade museum plane.

Does Tomislav have any pictures of the wing access panels?

cheers

T

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In his later book with the same title for Aston (later RAF Museum and now Crecy) he gave new serial samplings and disowned much of his earlier ones.

Tomorrow I'll get into the loft and track down KZ729, but in SEAC 607 was a pure fighter unit until 1945 when the Japanese Air Force had disappeared. If they had had the aircraft, it would have been as a hack. I've checked my complete (as far as I can get it) list of 607 serials and I haven't included KZ729 so must have dropped it after consulting the Air Britain serial books. I really should stick it back in with a note.

Edited by Graham Boak

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451 (RAAF) Sqn may have trialled Hurricane IVs as it did with Typhoons in North Africa, but it was not equipped with them according to my references. I'll check with the local "RAAF in North Africa" guru.

Edited by Ley

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From the reference pics, the wheel wells have been resprayed RAF grey-green, but looks like they were in Yugoslav grey before (the Yugoslav AF planes were repainted post war in grey uppers and blue undersides, like the Bf109 in the background of the pic I posted)

AFAIK, all Hurricane wheel wells were painted aluminium.

The build is neat, but two points for modellers

1- the door on the port side is an emergency escape panel, not an acces door like the Spitfire, access to the Hurricane is on the other side. To show off cockpit detail suggest removing the panel below the cockpit, as this was frequently seen removed for servicing

2- the prop blades on the Rotol prop are not DeHavilland, but rotol, as correctly shown on the Belgrade museum plane.

Does Tomislav have any pictures of the wing access panels?

cheers

T

Correct, in the text Tomo notes that wartime wheel bays were aluminium paint.

1. We know, and it was a matter of a heated debate between us, but he chose to open it, since he paid an arm and a leg for Aires pit.

2. Yes, but Tomo says, according to one photo in a old Yuvam magazine, "T" had a DH prop. Much heated debate followed.

As to wing photos, this is one of mine, taken in May.

BG_Hurricane_IV_wing.jpg

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And 20 Sqn Burma! IID's and IV's. "Deeds Not Words"

20 Sqn Mk IV's SEAC

Nick did you ever work out a serial for 'G' on your blog?

My late Dad served on an RSU in Burma frequently picking up pranged Hurris. Also destroyed a few late in the war when no longer needed!

(the other) Nick

ps Did you ever build that Frog SB 2 I swapped with you all those years ago?

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Hi Dragonlance

Quote
Correct, in the text Tomo notes that wartime wheel bays were aluminium paint.

OK, was just point this out, i don't read Croat so.....

Quote
1. We know, and it was a matter of a heated debate between us, but he chose to open it, since he paid an arm and a leg for Aires pit.

This was more as a general point, I have occasionally seen pics of Hurricanes with this removed, though norally with a laod of other panels open too. I was suggesting to other builders a more realistic panel to open to display the cockpit. Hurricanes are a bit of per subject for me, and there a few things I see in builds that irritate me, this panel being open, the other are dropped flaps, only down on the ground for servicing and scuffed paint showing metal under the cockpit, which is fabric covered plywood on the real thing.

Quote
2. Yes, but Tomo says, according to one photo in a old Yuvam magazine, "T" had a DH prop. Much heated debate followed.

OK, would like to to see that.

 

PS - I suspect  the DH/Rotol confusion is later Rotol blades lack the bottom 'corners' the earlier blades have.

see here

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234980181-hawker-hurricane-propellers-and-spinners-a-modellers-guide/

 

Quote
As to wing photos, this is one of mine, taken in May.

well, I emailed Tomo from the page you linked too, and asked if he had any pics of the upper wing, and he very kindly emailed some, and gave me permission to post them here as well.

As i suspected, the MK IV has a different panel arrangement, I though two large panels between the spars like the IIC, but looking at the pics closely, it seems it is one large panel in the outer position,(for the browning 0.303)and a metal strip not seen on the IIC on the outer edge. And one smaller panel behind the main spar in the inner position, IIRC this was to access the breech of the 40mm gun when fitted. Is the correct?

My next question is, did the IID have this panel layout, or did they just use a modified IIC wing?

HuIVBelDSC04898.jpg

36332251186_1d6d552ff8_o.jpg

note the blanked out landing light port next to yellow stripe, the 0.303 sighting gun port, and the blanked over inner port, which seems to show that the IV wing was based on a modified IIC wing.

The thing on the wing leading edge next to the joining strip is a camera gun port.

 

36240601171_58ab2094e7_o.jpg

Note HuIVBelDSC04975.jpg

from Tomislav's build, very useful underside detail, note metal plate, stubs for attaching 40 mm gun, and ejector slot for the 0.303 Browning sighting gun.

Of note is the metal strip just by the shell ejector slot, in what looks like the same position as the one on the upper wing.

Are the little bumps further forward to do with positioning of the drop tanks?

Muzej_08.JPG

Thanks to Tomislav for the photos and helping to answer to my question!

cheers

T

Edited by Troy Smith
PB replaced pics

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Drawings have been published for the Mk.IID wing, which show differences from the Mk.IIc much as are shown in the pictures of the Mk.IV in Belgrade. I don't think it was so much developed from the Mk.IIC as both being developments of a common structure. It is not clear how much of the proposed "universal" wing was retained on the Mk.IV, which would give differences from the Mk.IID. Other than the bomb carrier option I suspect little.

By the way Belgrade is in Serbia not Croatia. The language was known as Serbo-Croat, but I recall that nationalists in Croatia have been stressing and expanding the differences in usage to create a new separate language. I would not in the slightest be surprised to discover that the very same was happening in Serbia. Either way however, I suspect it is not a good idea to suggest that Serbs speak Croat. As a parallel, Burns should not be claimed as an English poet!

Edited by Graham Boak

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Drawings have been published for the Mk.IID wing, which show differences from the Mk.IIc much as are shown in the pictures of the Mk.IV in Belgrade. I don't think it was so much developed from the Mk.IIC as both being developments of a common structure. It is not clear how much of the proposed "universal" wing was retained on the Mk.IV, which would give differences from the Mk.IID. Other than the bomb carrier option I suspect little.

By the way Belgrade is in Serbia not Croatia. The language was known as Serbo-Croat, but I recall that nationalists in Croatia have been stressing and expanding the differences in usage to create a new separate language. I would not in the slightest be surprised to discover that the very same was happening in Serbia. Either way however, I suspect it is not a good idea to suggest that Serbs speak Croat. As a parallel, Burns should not be claimed as an English poet!

Hi Graham

I know Belgrade is in Serbia, and that language is usually known Serbo-Croat outside of the countries concerned, but both the correspondents, DragonlanceHR and Tomislav are in Croatia, (as both have 'HR' in their emails, as in hrvatski, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_language) and the MkIV build has Tomislav's email, so I meant to write Croat because of this as I did not wish to cause them offence by writing Serbo-Croat for this very reason!

The parallel you quote about Burns is apt, as apparently the languages are very close, like English English and Scottish English, but differences are emphasized for nationalist reasons. No offence intended to anyone please note, I just wanted to comment on Hurricanes, and letting the good people here see some decent clear pics of the MKIV wing details. (I also posted thse pics in the thread on the AZ MK IV to see if they got the wing panels right)

It is not clear how much of the proposed "universal" wing was retained on the Mk.IV, which would give differences from the Mk.IID. Other than the bomb carrier option I suspect little.

well, AFAIK, the IID could carry just the 40mm Vickers guns, the IV could carry rockets, 40mm guns, bomb racks/carriers and drop tanks, so that makes it a bit more universal.

cheers

T

Edited by Troy Smith

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By the way Belgrade is in Serbia not Croatia. The language was known as Serbo-Croat, but I recall that nationalists in Croatia have been stressing and expanding the differences in usage to create a new separate language. I would not in the slightest be surprised to discover that the very same was happening in Serbia. Either way however, I suspect it is not a good idea to suggest that Serbs speak Croat. As a parallel, Burns should not be claimed as an English poet!

Some OT corrections:

Correct, Belgrade is the capital of Serbia. OTOH, Tomo and I are both Croats (and proud). We like to visit the aviation museum in Belgrade. Hell, Tomo makes a pilgrimage every year. The force of Spit Mk.V, Il-2M and Hurricane is strong! :hypnotised:

Croatian was and is a separate language from Serbian, apart for the 1945-1990 period of communist "fraternity and unity". Although similar, they differ much in syntax, not to mention the Cyrillic script in Serbia. It's not like the English and US English.

Off topic mode off. :smartass:

Troy, I'm glad that Tomo pitched in. Saved me from looking where I put his photo CD's. I'll buy him a beer when I see him today :cheers:

Vedran

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Thanks for the corrections. In this case the Scots and English present an even better parallel, in that historically Lowland Scots (or Lalland) was a separate language from a common Germanic root, and distinct from the current Scots which is a dialect of English heavily influenced by Lalland. I do feel that those who deliberately set out to make it more difficult for people to speak to each other are to be deplored, but as a Geordie in origin I clearly have my own problems in that regard! My apologies if the joke at the end is a little opaque for those outside the UK.

But back to Hurricanes. The tanks fitted to the same structure as the bombracks, which was present on the wing from the initial upgrading early in Mk.IIB production and hence pre-dated the mods for the Mk.IID. Indeed, fixed tanks could be carried on the Mk.I. The rockets are admittedly another matter.

I'm not clear whether the wing on the Belgrade aircraft is exhibiting features seen on all Mk.IVs, or whether that particular wing was indeed modified from a Mk.IIc. Perhaps time to go down to Birmingham, with these Belgrade photos in hand.

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Thanks for the corrections. In this case the Scots and English present an even better parallel, in that historically Lowland Scots (or Lalland) was a separate language from a common Germanic root, and distinct from the current Scots which is a dialect of English heavily influenced by Lalland. I do feel that those who deliberately set out to make it more difficult for people to speak to each other are to be deplored, but as a Geordie in origin I clearly have my own problems in that regard! My apologies if the joke at the end is a little opaque for those outside the UK.

But back to Hurricanes. The tanks fitted to the same structure as the bombracks, which was present on the wing from the initial upgrading early in Mk.IIB production and hence pre-dated the mods for the Mk.IID. Indeed, fixed tanks could be carried on the Mk.I. The rockets are admittedly another matter.

I'm not clear whether the wing on the Belgrade aircraft is exhibiting features seen on all Mk.IVs, or whether that particular wing was indeed modified from a Mk.IIc. Perhaps time to go down to Birmingham, with these Belgrade photos in hand.

as "wor lass is a Geordie like" I know what you mean :)

problem with Birmingham....

KX829, Thinktank, the Birmingham Museum of Science and Discovery, Millennium Point Discovery Centre, Birmingham

http://www.thinktank.ac/home/default.htm

sadly painted in fake BoB markings, and hanging from the ceiling, annoying as this plane served with 3 RAF sq's in the war. (that is info is not available to me here)

PicHur4.jpg

My guess from looking at the wing panels, as in continual skinning, this is a standard IV wing.

cheers

T

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I was looking at the various upper wing pictures and looking at the A-Z kit (which looks like a very nice effort).

I'm still a bit confused - and I think it's all those well-intentioned restoration people that have done it.

What is the externally visible difference between a IId with 40mm cannon and a IV with cannon?

I was thinking the A-Z kit would look nice in 246 IAP markings.

According to Green (1961) the Rolls-Royce BF cannon carried 12 rpg and the Vickers S gun carried 15rpg.

With the indulgence of the moderators I will post this in both Hurricane threads.

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I was looking at the various upper wing pictures and looking at the A-Z kit (which looks like a very nice effort).

I'm still a bit confused - and I think it's all those well-intentioned restoration people that have done it.

What is the externally visible difference between a IId with 40mm cannon and a IV with cannon?

I was thinking the A-Z kit would look nice in 246 IAP markings.

According to Green (1961) the Rolls-Royce BF cannon carried 12 rpg and the Vickers S gun carried 15rpg.

With the indulgence of the moderators I will post this in both Hurricane threads.

Ed

What do the wing panels look like? the conclusion here is, we are not really sure. What would be the best reference in the UK is hanging from the ceiling in B'Ham.....Or asking Hawker Retorations who I think have the production drawings. (I will when I get chance)

Unless the wing on the Belgrade MK IV has been extensively reskinned, That's probably what a MkIV upper wing looks like. The lower wing looks like the one in B'Ham. The plane in B'ham has been on display for many years, at least since the 60's, and used to be quite accessible.

the IID is probably like the MkIV but has the two larger hatches like the IIC.

I made glitch in one post, the IID carried 15 rounds per gun, while MkIV carried 30. AFAIK, the only gun used in service was the Vickers S, the RR cannon was unfaired.

HTH

T

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If this diagram is right, then the A-Z kit is fine for a IId.

hurri2d.jpg

Edit - I can't vouch for the veracity of the drawings, from the Squadron Signal book, reproduced here as a review.

Edited by Ed Russell

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