BoB Spitfire wheel well colours

[Wez]

I'm happy that the wheel wells and undercarriage door interiors of aircraft that were painted from build with sky undersides were sky but what about those aircraft that originally featured other underside colours that were repainted in sky or any of the sky alternatives such as eau-de-nil what were the colours of their wheel wells and undercarriage doors?

Over to you guys...

Wez

Edited October 30, 2010 by Wez

[Test Graham]

I admire your confidence. It is my belief that the earliest service Spitfires will have had Aluminium wheel wells and doors to match the Aluminium lower surfaces. I am less certain about the well colour for those with black/white undersides or, indeed, Sky. There is the possibility (if not more) that at some stage in production all interiors became Grey Green (commonly called Interior Grey Green, but this is a carry-across from the US Interior Green).

I would paint the inside of the wheel doors to match the exterior colour, but will not guarantee that.

I believe Edgar may have a better grasp of the changes.

However, I'm pretty sure that aircraft repainted with any of the "substitute Sky" colours after leaving Supermarines will not have had this colour on any interior surfaces.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Graham Boak

[Edgar]

1/. Eau-de-Nil was not an alternative to Sky/Camotint; wartime aircraft were not painted in B.S. colours, in fact when British Standards offered their services, the Air Ministry declined, saying that changes could be made so fast that they preferred to keep the work in-house, so to speak.

2/. Wheel wells do not get a specific mention, in Supermarine's painting instructions, so you're left with the "Standard Paint Treatment" which states "For this machine all components & parts are to be finally protected with one coat of UP1 undercoat grey, followed by a finishing coat pigmented with aluminium to DTD 63A unless otherwise stated in the following list."

It might be assuming too much, but, since the wells and doors do not get a mention, I take the above statement to mean that they were painted silver, especially since the aluminium paint is also specified for the interiors of the wings, flaps and cowlings.

Now comes the caveat; what happened when a/c were repainted (whether by repair unit, M.U., or Squadron) is anyone's guess, and there's a well-known film of a 609 Squadron Spitfire, undergoing maintenance checks, where it's clear to see that the wells, doors and wheel hubs are black and white, just like the undersides. Would an erk, told to paint the underside a different colour, have had time to mask off the wheel wells, or would they have got exactly the same covering as the rest of the wings? Likewise the doors; hang them up, and spray both sides?

It's certain that, at some stage, some a/c received green wheel wells (our locally-based AR213 did, for one, but that was built by Westland, who might have had a different agenda for the forthcoming Seafires.) The grey-green was only specified for the cockpit interior, but this extended forward to the firewall, and engine bearers, so someone could have stretched a point, and decided that the wells were interior, but that requires a heck of a leap in faith. Just to illustrate this anomaly, the BBMF have painted the wells, on their XIXs, grey-green (unless they were already that colour.)

Always remember that the conditions, in wartime, were far removed from the fairly leisurely situation today. The normal establishment, in 1939, was one spraygun per airfield; imagine two or three Squadrons all trying to paint 18 airframes (the normal establishment) while carrying out their daily patrols, interceptions, etc. As an illustration, I have a copy of a 7-6-40 letter, from 235 Squadron (Blenheims,) complaining about the difficulty of repainting 18 aircraft, and asking for the same facilities as received by West Raynham, who'd had a party of men from Henlow "with special spraying apparatus" to do the respraying.

The nearest modern(ish) equivalent would probably be the Falklands, where Sea Harriers had their white undersides overpainted in grey, with yard brooms being pressed into service.

Edgar

[Wez]

Thanks Gents,

I suspected that no repaint may have been the order of the day but...

1/. Eau-de-Nil was not an alternative to Sky/Camotint; wartime aircraft were not painted in B.S. colours, in fact when British Standards offered their services, the Air Ministry declined, saying that changes could be made so fast that they preferred to keep the work in-house, so to speak.

I though Eau-de-nil is the colour otherwise known as "duck egg green" and that was used to camouflage the undersides of day fighters in lieu of sky... ...confused now

Now comes the caveat; what happened when a/c were repainted (whether by repair unit, M.U., or Squadron) is anyone's guess, and there's a well-known film of a 609 Squadron Spitfire, undergoing maintenance checks, where it's clear to see that the wells, doors and wheel hubs are black and white, just like the undersides. Would an erk, told to paint the underside a different colour, have had time to mask off the wheel wells, or would they have got exactly the same covering as the rest of the wings? Likewise the doors; hang them up, and spray both sides?

depends on how fussy their Flight Sergeant was so maybe (was told by an ex-wartime doper that whilst the official limit for overspray when sprayed freehand was 1", most Flight Sergeant's he worked for insisted on 1/2")

It's certain that, at some stage, some a/c received green wheel wells (our locally-based AR213 did, for one, but that was built by Westland, who might have had a different agenda for the forthcoming Seafires.) The grey-green was only specified for the cockpit interior, but this extended forward to the firewall, and engine bearers, so someone could have stretched a point, and decided that the wells were interior, but that requires a heck of a leap in faith. Just to illustrate this anomaly, the BBMF have painted the wells, on their XIXs, grey-green (unless they were already that colour.)

That could just be down to somebody incorrectly interpreting the instructions/drawings or the instructions/drawings being confusing and thus open to different interpretation - been a victim of that myself!

Always remember that the conditions, in wartime, were far removed from the fairly leisurely situation today.

But conversely, they had far more manpower than they do today

The normal establishment, in 1939, was one spraygun per airfield; imagine two or three Squadrons all trying to paint 18 airframes (the normal establishment) while carrying out their daily patrols, interceptions, etc. As an illustration, I have a copy of a 7-6-40 letter, from 235 Squadron (Blenheims,) complaining about the difficulty of repainting 18 aircraft, and asking for the same facilities as received by West Raynham, who'd had a party of men from Henlow "with special spraying apparatus" to do the respraying.

The nearest modern(ish) equivalent would probably be the Falklands, where Sea Harriers had their white undersides overpainted in grey, with yard brooms being pressed into service.

Edgar

That just boils down to good old fashioned British "improvise, adapt and overcome"

Thanks for the gen, I think I'll paint my wheel wells silver

Regards

Wez

Edited October 29, 2010 by Wez

[Edgar]

I though Eau-de-nil is the colour otherwise known as "duck egg green" and that was used to camouflage the undersides of day fighters in lieu of sky...

First, there was "Camotint," invented by Sidney Cotton, which was renamed "Standard Sky," which was quickly shortened to "Sky." I believe, though I seem to be in a minority (of one?) that "duck-egg blue" was a description (hence the lack of capital letters,) and was never part of the title; I also believe that the "duck-egg" part refers to the smooth (Type "S" in the name) finish, not the actual colour.

I've looked at Air Ministry colour chips, cards, lists, until nearly dizzy, and found no reference, whatsoever, to an Eau-de-Nil, or a "duck-egg green." Eau-de-Nil was listed in the pre-war B.S.381, but, by British Standards Institute's own admission, they had no working relationship with the Ministry, so, although it looks like Sky, that's as far as it goes.

Duck-egg green is a complete mystery, though there's an intriguing possibility for its (post-war?) arrival on the scene, and this is where I head far into "WHIF" territory. Pre-war, there existed a Sky Blue, which was used on drones, like the Queen Wasp. It's plain, from a signal that I've found, that many Squadrons/airfields/C.O.s had no idea what Sky was, and the Air Ministry, somewhat unhelpfully, said that it "could best be described as a Duck Egg Bluish Green." (Note the capitals!) Suppose that a junior was sent to the stores, to look for Sky, found Sky Blue, and it was used; it might explain the occasional sightings of BoB a/c with blue undersides, not a pale green. Leaping further into the abyss of WHIF, suppose observers heard of the description "duck egg blue," thought it was for Sky Blue, and cobbled together their own "name" of duck egg green for Sky?

I do not want the usual pile of you-know-what descending on my head, thank you very much; these are just the musings, and ramblings, of someone who's going slightly cross-eyed, digging backwards and forwards in hundreds of files.

Edgar

[Wez]

I do not want the usual pile of you-know-what descending on my head, thank you very much; these are just the musings, and ramblings, of someone who's going slightly cross-eyed, digging backwards and forwards in hundreds of files.

Edgar

Edgar,

You won't get that from me, I for one am very grateful for those like yourself who take the time to scour the records and freely report your findings to those that ask.

Thanks for shedding some light on the sky conundrum.

Regards

Wez

[Alex Gordon]

Thanks Edgar,

The lack of official clarity makes a number of things clear.

[Test Graham]

If I may add a little to what Edgar described: The use of Eau-de-Nil as a colour name on BoB fighters comes from Paul Lucas's study of the remains of RAF fighters of the period. It had always been argued that not all fighters had Sky undersides at this period, with observers identifying a blue colour. What Paul (and Neil Robinson, and possibly others) found on their tour of museum remains from digs was a wide range of underside colours, which they identified as Sky, Eau-de-Nil, Sky Blue and Sky Grey. A concurrent study of the paper records showed an apparent shortage of supply of Sky, and some confusion within the supply chain at the time as to just what it was. This research was published in an excellent book from Guideline (SAM).

This has of course since been followed by other interpretations of the same evidence. Mainly, perhaps, centring on the suggestion that the versions with more or less of a green tinge were simply poorly stirred/mixed versions of Sky. One problem with the book, to my mind, was that the only actual evidence for the greener shade, or "Eau-de-Nil", come from three aircraft that were in South Yorkshire/North Lincolnshire at the time of the order to change to Sky, whereas Paul (to my mind) overgeneralised this to many more units. It could be true, but is not supported by the evidence presented.

Duck's eggs come in a wide range of colours, but "duck egg blue" was and still is a widely-used colour name for a light greenish-blue. To my eye this is somewhere between Sky and Sky Blue, and Sky is distinctly on the greenish side! I cannot see how Sky can be described as any kind of "(modifed) blue" because it isn't blue. My personal (one man) belief is that the original intention, if it can be blessed with such clarity, was to describe Sky Blue as duck-egg blue and Sky as duck-egg green, but a mistake was made and we've lived with that ever since. There was, after all, more important things to worry about at the time. Or now.