Hawker Typhoon prototype P5212 - NIVO over aluminium?

[Troy Smith]

Hi

in the this thread of a build of Typhoons

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2005...sko_typhoon.htm

there is a model of P5212, described ab being in NIVO uppersurfaces and 'silver' undersides [presume aluminium dope]

is this correct? is there a source for this?

here are pics of the plane in question.

i did consider just PM Chris Thomas but thought this may be of wider interest to you good people here.

cheers

T

Edited December 8, 2010 by Troy Smith

[rossm]

I'm away from my references just now but I'm pretty sure I remember pics of the Tornado prototype in camouflage on the upper surfaces with the same black/white wing and forward fuselage undersides as shown in your lower picture. The reason you can't see a camouflage demarcation could be the type of film used - that roundel looks 'odd' in terms of shades of grey so could indicate ortho film which responds differently to different colours from 'normal' black and white film.

The taxiway looks wet so good old British weather explains the very glossy finish I think.

Certainly black/white wing (and tail?) undersides with 'wrap-around' camouflage or aluminium under the fuselage and Dark Green/Dark Earth uppersufaces was the fighter 'standard' for the period. If you can prove something else I'd be delighted to hear about it as I love oddities,

Ross

Edited October 21, 2010 by rossm

[Mike S]

The Typhoon prototype was finished as a day fighter with Dark Earth/ Dark Green on top and black/ white underneath the wings and fuselage but according to the Camouflage and Markings book by Jones and Gould the tailplane undersurface was aluminium due to misinterpretation of the AMO. Roundel on the fuselage was red/white/blue only. The photograph was taken using ortho film which reverses many tones, this is a very common type of film used for official photographs and causes much confusion when trying to interpret colours.

[Dave Fleming]

I'm sure this is one of Santiago & his Dad's models (Scores of Hurricanes!) - if he is about he can tell perhaps?

[Edgar]

*

Edited October 22, 2010 by Edgar

[Troy Smith]

I'm sure this is one of Santiago & his Dad's models (Scores of Hurricanes!) - if he is about he can tell perhaps?

HI, it is indeed one of Santiago's and his dad's models.

I did PM him, no response as yet, but in the link the camo is listed as being NIVO uppersurfaces over silver [aluminium]

The reason I ask is as it seemed unusual, and if anyone else knew more about this.

I have never noticed DG/DE uppersurfaces appearing as a solid colour using orthochromatic film.

These are not the best pics, I can't scan here, but if anyone has 'Typhoon and Tempest at War', there is large pic of the Typhoon prototype on page 18-19 and same pic, smaller, but showing fin on 20-21 clearly showing a single upper surface colour, and quite a high gloss too.

If I get chance I'll post the pic.

cheers

T

Edited October 22, 2010 by Troy Smith

[keith in the uk]

Mike S is right , i have Camouflage & markings in front of me now Quote :-

The Prototype P5212 flew for the first time on 24th February 1940. Also at this time the AMOs 154/39 and 298/39 were implmented properly and

P5212 appeared with the upper surfaces camouflarged in temperate land scheme of Dark Earth & Dark Green and the undersurfaces were painted Black & White

with the diversion of these colours along the centre line of the belly.

There is also a picture quite clearly showing the camouflage on top with a Black spinner.

[Test Graham]

Ortho film makes the Dark Earth appear much marker than usual. There is very low contrast between the DE and the Dark Green, and it would only take a dismal day and/or a poorly-exposed photo to make the demarcation difficult to see.

However, why should Hawker paint this aircraft is such a unique scheme, against specific instructions? Not being a bomber producer, they'd be unlikely to have large stocks of the paint. It is sometimes recorded as used on the top surfaces of the Hawker biplane fuselage, but not I think of on company photos.

Although NIVO certainly was used mainly on fabric surfaces, was it not also used on metal surfaces such as Heyford nacelles? This would suggest that a metal-friendly version existed. It seems that the colour itself is still being disputed - most references make it closer to Dark Slate Grey than Dark Green. Indeed, it has been said that the FAA became interested in such a camouflage colour after seeing how well NIVO worked for a flight of Heyfords over the water.

Edited October 22, 2010 by Graham Boak

[Chris Thomas]

Thank you Troy for posting this interesting topic. Let me say straight away that I have no definitive answer!

Mike S is right , i have Camouflage & markings in front of me now Quote :-

The Prototype P5212 flew for the first time on 24th February 1940. Also at this time the AMOs 154/39 and 298/39 were implmented properly and

P5212 appeared with the upper surfaces camouflarged in temperate land scheme of Dark Earth & Dark Green and the undersurfaces were painted Black & White

with the diversion of these colours along the centre line of the belly.

There is also a picture quite clearly showing the camouflage on top with a Black spinner.

Mike S and Keith have quite rightly turned to what in my opinion remains the best single source of colour scheme information on RAF fighters in NW Europe in WW2. Two of the authors were personal friends and I know the lengths to which they went in compiling the work. However no work of this source can ever claim to be definitive, 'new' data is still turning up. Sometimes an author writes according to his latest research, only for new information to turn up after publication (I speak from experience!). Then there are the multitude of opportunities for error on the path tp publication, from editors who think they know better, to designers who chop off vital words. So, I would be hesitant about saying 'C&M' is the complete answer.

To illustrate my point, the photo to which Keith refers is captioned "... revised as per AMO 21, November 1940 ..." but the photo was taken at the Typhoon's 'roll-out' in February 1940. In January 1961 issue of Airfix Magazine (I was just 15 and churning out Frog and Airfix as fast as pocket money allowed!) M.J.F.Bowyer stated in his article on Typhoon markings, "P5212 ... first flew in dark green and dark earth upper surfaces". But in 'Fighting Colours', first published in 1969, he caption the same photo as mentioned above as ""P5212 ... in its original glossy grey finish, worn for only a short time before camouflage superseded it."

I have not come across any primary sources which detail the early prototype schemes - just other researchers' conclusions - which always begs the question 'where did they get their information?'

I have some high quality scans from original photos taken at 'roll-out'. They clearly show black/white undersides with (presumably) 'Aluminium' rear fuselage and tailplane undersurfaces. Even under severe manipulation on photoshop I cannot get any indication of camouflage on the uppersurfaces. Was there a film type that gave no differentiation between dark green/earth? On the other hand there are photos of the Tornado prototype, which is generally reckoned to have been DG/DE, where the uppersurfaces also appear as a uniform colour. Incidentally I don't go for the wet surfaces giving a gloss impression. The photos (from 4 different angles) show a remarkably uniform high gloss. Where did you see 'camouflage' Keith?

I'm away from the PC until Sunday - looking forward to hearing a few thoughts and hoping for some new clues!

Chris

[Chris Thomas]

Further to my post above I thought I'd do a bit of digging on sources for the alleged grey upper surfaces on P5212. In addition to Mike Bowyers comment in 'Fighting Colours' (1969), Arthur Bentley's Typhoon plans (1974) give the prototype upper surfaces as "mid blue-grey". The same colour is quoted by F.K.Mason in Profile 81 (1966); could this publication have been the source for the other two? If so ... how likely is it to be accurate? As Mason worked for Hawker in the 50/60s it would seem likely that he found a firsthand source for the prototype's colours, however, the inaccuracy of some of the other colour information in his Profile on the Typhoon leaves a lingering doubt. Has anyone found any other sources?

Graham raises a good point - why should Hawker have painted P5212 in a non-standard colour? There are another set of photos of P5212 taken at A&AEE in October 1940; sometimes these are miscaptioned as P5216, the second prototype but reference to the A&AEE test reports reveal that it was P5212, although no serial is visible in any of the photos. Apparently on ortho film, as the repainted fuselage roundels have a dark (yellow outer ring), the undersides appear black also, so presumably are yellow (correct for the period) but the upper surfaces still appear one uniform colour. But surely if the undersides had been painted to comply with instructions, the upper surfaces would also comply, ie. DG/DE.

So despite the evidence of my eyes, I would plump for the DG/DE upper surfaces for P5212 from its first appearance**.

I can find no mention anywhere of Santiago's Nivo - in any case he has the undersides wrong and the upper wing roundels which were Type B not Type A.

CT

** ... it wouldn't take much for me to change my mind ...!

[Nick Millman]

Apropos to not very much wasn't the Whirlwind prototype painted dark grey at one point?

[Dave Fleming]

Apropos to not very much wasn't the Whirlwind prototype painted dark grey at one point?

As apparently were lots of Beaufighters.

It was also a known practice in railways for 'new' classes to be painted in grey for their 'official' photograph then repainted into the service colours.

[The wooksta V2.0]

One of the Model Alliance decal sheets for Hurricanes has one option for a Hurricane in overall NIVO.

[Chris Thomas]

It was also a known practice in railways for 'new' classes to be painted in grey for their 'official' photograph then repainted into the service colours.

Very interesting ... anyone know if aircraft manufacturers (in addition to Westland) did something similar?

[diamant]

Dear All

Sorry for not answering before but I was away due to a business trip.

I would like to point out that this serie (Hawker Typhoon / Tempest / Tornado) was done by my father more than 10 / 15 years ago and by that moment he did not have not even the 10% of the information we have now.

We have been improving our reaserch skill by the access to more books, forum, by receiving a lot of feedback from historians, more exerience modeller, etc.

As regard the Hawker Typhoon P5212 these are all the photos that I found (reference Airlife - Hawker Typhoon - The Combat History)

I could not found were my father get the NIVO information but he still looking for that reference. As I said, it was more than 10 years ago.

Chris, you are right, the upper wing roundels on our model are wrong (They were Type . I didn't realice that you wrote the Hawker Typhoon Warpaint book. Congratulation.

The under surface looks black and white (pretty sure) but as per what I can see the rear part of the fuselage was not White/Black (see red arrow).

So, if the rear part of the fuselage was aluminium, I think that we must see a difference between the upper and under fuselage demarcation in the photo taken from the front (between DG/DE and Aluminium). To be honest I cannot see that difference nor the difference / demarcation between the two colors (DE and DG). As you mentioned it was highly possible that was painted in DG/DE although we can't see it.

See below

Any ideas?

Coming back with our model, as soon as we detected an error I save the information for the future in order to amend it. The problem is that we have more than to 600 kits to build and a lot of reaserch for futures series has to be done. :-)

Also I have more Typhoon and Tempest to add so the next time I am sure I will ask for some help before building them. :-)

Cheers

Santiago

[Dave Fleming]

Very interesting ... anyone know if aircraft manufacturers (in addition to Westland) did something similar?

Not sure, but according to this wiki page it wasn't confined to railways, White Star painted the Brittanic in the same way!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photographic_grey

[Nick Millman]

Personal and subjective but to me the upper surface in the photographs of the prototype doesn't look like Dark Green and Dark Earth (regardless of low contrast) and the undersurface doesn't look like white or silver. The paint appears to have lustre and is highly polished. After reading Dave's comments I suspect this may have been finished for the photography - perhaps dark grey over sky blue or sky? Without checking I recall that the Whirlwind prototype photos appear very similar.

[Test Graham]

Yes, I recall the mention of the Whirlwind in a dark grey. Perhaps this was more common than previously assumed.

I believe the railway grey was lighter, however. At least on the NER/LNER.

[Dave Fleming]

Personal and subjective but to me the upper surface in the photographs of the prototype doesn't look like Dark Green and Dark Earth (regardless of low contrast) and the undersurface doesn't look like white or silver. The paint appears to have lustre and is highly polished. After reading Dave's comments I suspect this may have been finished for the photography - perhaps dark grey over sky blue or sky? Without checking I recall that the Whirlwind prototype photos appear very similar.

Earlier than Feb 1940 woould be a bit early for Sky. I think the wings (and tailplane) are black and white undersides, the fuselage appears to be uniform overall.

Does anyone know what colour of primer was Hawker using at that time?

[Nick Millman]

Earlier than Feb 1940 woould be a bit early for Sky. I think the wings (and tailplane) are black and white undersides, the fuselage appears to be uniform overall.

Does anyone know what colour of primer was Hawker using at that time?

Yes, you're right. I completely missed the black in the photo!

[Chris Thomas]

I've had a closer look at a number of photos of P5212 and compared them with a similar set taken of P5224 - the second Tornado prototype.

The latter shots were taken later - March 1941 - but clearly on some sort of ortho film as the outer ring of the roundel appears black; however the DE/DG pattern is visible, although hard to discern in some areas. The pattern showed up best on the rear view, which showed the upper surface of the wing. I managed to find a similar shot of P5212 in the Feb 40 sequence, taken from the same angle - and there was a faint indication of a pattern on the wings. With brightness and contrast at high levels on Photoshop, several matches with the Tornado pattern were visible, most notably the patch on the port leading edge inboard of the roundel.

So ... as much as I would like to think the Typhoon prototype was in a unique (?) grey/black/white sceme (and thanks to all those who posted helpful comments and theories) ...

... to my mind there is now no doubt that P5212 was originally in a DE/DG upper surface scheme, with black/white undersides, except for the rear fuselage and tailplane undersurfaces which were (presumably) 'Aluminium' (paint). This latter colour extended along the underside as far as the point where the rear fuselage monocoque joined the centre-section.

As for FK Mason's 'mid blue-grey' (and in absence of any earlier evidence) - I'm putting that down as one of his 'shoot from the hip' photocaptions (of which there are a number).

Thanks again to Troy for raising this question.

Chris

[Nick Millman]

As for FK Mason's 'mid blue-grey' (and in absence of any earlier evidence) - I'm putting that down as one of his 'shoot from the hip' photocaptions (of which there are a number).

Chris

Perhaps drawn from the interpretation of less than clear images and precisely the same speculation as ours!

Dark Earth and Dark Green have relatively low contrast diffuse reflectivity at a 6% difference only whereas Ocean Grey and Dark Green is at 9%, not always sufficient to identify beyond doubt the colours in b/w prints, so the chronology and dates have a very useful role to play.

[ben_m]

Chris, in your better quality photos, can you see a change from the DE/DG to aluminium under the rear of the fuselage? I am struggling to see any change- could it have had wrap-around camouflage?

[kitnut617]

I've been following this with interest as I've a couple of prototype Typhoons to build. But I have to say the colour scheme NIVO is completely new to me as I've never heard or seen it mentioned before. What is NIVO please?

[ben_m]

I've been following this with interest as I've a couple of prototype Typhoons to build. But I have to say the colour scheme NIVO is completely new to me as I've never heard or seen it mentioned before. What is NIVO please?

Wikipedia NIVO