A token effort

[larkie]

After some months of snooping about this site I thought I should make an effort and post something. So here's my drawing of a stationary Hawker Hurricane I, copied from a photograph in 'Aeroplane' magazine. I don't usually draw in this style because it's SOOO difficult and I haven't really got the patience for it, especially getting proportions right, as you can see . I've nothing but admiration for those who post here who can pull it off.

All comments welcome.

[wkennerley]

cool its better than I can do, hope to see more

[NeilF92]

Definitely on the right lines - the more you do the better/ easier it gets - there is unfortunately no easy way to gain the skill level if you want to sketch accurate freehand . Just practice and attention to detail . Plus the ability to tear your own work to shreds and start again till you know it's right or good enough for purpose.

I think most of the pros these days take short cuts - photograph the real thing or models and trace or create 3D models either with geometric projection or in CAD software so that the image they capture is genuinely original to them - but not necessarily derived by freehand drawing. It is very enjoyable being able to sketch accurately freehand but don't go beating yourself up because your efforts don't seem to match up .

I think much more important is the ability to visualise a scene and place the aircraft within it in a realistic pose and at a practicable size.

If you get the chance then sketching real life objects like Upnorth did is better than copying photos in terms of improving your ability .Nevertheless ,copying photos is a good way of honing observation and accuracy in absence of real aircraft.

The Buccs in my avtar are created from a 3D geometric projection which gives you the key points to hang a pencil drawing around and flesh out .

Keep at it!

Edited October 3, 2010 by NeilF92

[larkie]

Definitely on the right lines - the more you do the better/ easier it gets - there is unfortunately no easy way to gain the skill level if you want to sketch accurate freehand . Just practice and attention to detail . Plus the ability to tear your own work to shreds and start again till you know it's right or good enough for purpose.

I think most of the pros these days take short cuts - photograph the real thing or models and trace or create 3D models either with geometric projection or in CAD software so that the image they capture is genuinely original to them - but not necessarily derived by freehand drawing. It is very enjoyable being able to sketch accurately freehand but don't go beating yourself up because your efforts don't seem to match up .

I think much more important is the ability to visualise a scene and place the aircraft within it in a realistic pose and at a practicable size.

If you get the chance then sketching real life objects like Upnorth did is better than copying photos in terms of improving your ability .Nevertheless ,copying photos is a good way of honing observation and accuracy in absence of real aircraft.

The Buccs in my avtar are created from a 3D geometric projection which gives you the key points to hang a pencil drawing around and flesh out .

Keep at it!

Thanks wkennerley.

And thanks NeilF92 for excellent advice.

I've just about finished sticking together an Airfix Hurricane Mk II, so I'm going to try a few drawings from this instead and see if it brings better results. For me, the lines are the most important thing so tracing's a definite no - they've got to be mine so I'll have to learn the hard way .

Cheers, Matthew

[jimbuna]

Looks fine to me Matthew....I've never progressed beyond matchstick men.

Keep it up

[NeilF92]

One compromise you can think about is , if using a photo , to mark a few ( say 6 ) key points on the aircraft and transfer these to the work place at any suitable scale . Then it's a case of drawing your own lines but with certain critical depth and length points to keep you right - kind of forces you to see just how the line should run rather than wandering off .

Edited October 4, 2010 by NeilF92

[larkie]

Looks fine to me Matthew....I've never progressed beyond matchstick men.

Keep it up

Thanks jimbuna.

Matchstick men rock!

[AnonymousFO98]

No Tracing! that is an order!

It works for some but would not recommend it.

Looks like the fuel mix may have been a little on the rich side.

But for the most part the shapes have been well captured.

Just keep a watch on the proportions and you are well on the way.

keep up the good work!

[larkie]

One compromise you can think about is , if using a photo , to mark a few ( say 6 ) key points on the aircraft and transfer these to the work place at any suitable scale . Then it's a case of drawing your own lines but with certain critical depth and length points to keep you right - kind of forces you to see just how the line should run rather than wandering off .

Hmmm. I've been thinking about this from your last post as well:

The Buccs in my avtar are created from a 3D geometric projection which gives you the key points to hang a pencil drawing around and flesh out .

In fact, the more and more I think about aeroplane drawing, the more I think about the similarities with figure drawing. The basic proportions and angles have got to be spot on or something as familiar as a Spit or Hurricane is just never going to look right. I'm reasonably confident (famous last words!) I can get those down freehand as long as I spend a lot more time on it and just keep checking and checking every extended line and angle. Well, that's enough typing: time to take up the pencil. Thanks again for taking the trouble to reply - you have provided much food for thought.

[larkie]

Hi walrus

No Tracing! that is an order!

It works for some but would not recommend it.

Einverstanden!

Actually I don't think I could even if I wanted to. It's like dropping litter in the street - I've just been programmed so that it's physically impossible.

Looks like the fuel mix may have been a little on the rich side.

But for the most part the shapes have been well captured.

Just keep a watch on the proportions and you are well on the way.

keep up the good work!

Thanks for your kind words. I look forward to posting some better progress in the near future .

[HOUSTON]

good work...clean lines and the pencil strokes are very good.

[larkie]

good work...clean lines and the pencil strokes are very good.

Thanks Houston. I'm working on some improvements at the moment - hope you'll check them out when they're ready.

[NeilF92]

Another point you need to watch - whether freehand or trace copying a photo . The photo itself may very well be distorted. You need to check it for lens and cockpit glass distortion and correct for these faults .

When I talk of tracing I mean transferring a very ,very faint line to the workspace . The individual pencil work comes in as you translate the edges into positive or lost lines through shading and strokes . The trace lines disappear in the process . It is quite possible to get it wrong , as the work progresses - the trace lines vanish and it is easy to wander off .

[larkie]

Another point you need to watch - whether freehand or trace copying a photo . The photo itself may very well be distorted. You need to check it for lens and cockpit glass distortion and correct for these faults .

When I talk of tracing I mean transferring a very ,very faint line to the workspace . The individual pencil work comes in as you translate the edges into positive or lost lines through shading and strokes . The trace lines disappear in the process . It is quite possible to get it wrong , as the work progresses - the trace lines vanish and it is easy to wander off .

Here's where I am at the moment. Believe it or not, this is an improvement over some previous efforts.

These are all drawn from an unpainted 1/72 scale model. I find myself making the same mistakes quite regularly, such as the fuselage being too fat and tending to 'bend' towards the viewer.

Using a strict 'measure everything' method has ended up requiring a lot more practice than I first thought (- not that I've ever had much success with it previously).

It'd be easier if I had a real aircraft in the back garden - at 1/72 scale the measuring units (e.g. cockpit length) are just too small to use reliably at this stage. Similarly with translating angles, there's not much margin for error.

I've not paid enough attention to negative shapes either. These seem especially important when getting the wings right.

Neil, could you say more about what you mean by photo distortion? I wasn't sure if you meant the tendency of cameras to exaggerate foreshortening (do they have that tendency?) or some other effect it has on the subject. Even better if you could provide an example.

Thanks, Matthew

[AnonymousFO98]

Matthew

Try putting down some guidelines and marker points, very lightly, before commencing.

For example, It might be worth drawing a small line at the tip of the nose and one at the tail.

Your Hurricane will be that long.

I get the impression that you draw directly, which makes errors with proportions more likely.

It helps to think of tangential orthoganal or isometric boxes surrounding your subject that can be used as reference points.

Also check negative shapes between details.

Also, try to think of a hierarchy of forms rather than being concerned with details from the start.

Just think english breakfast to start with rather than a composite of details.

It is just sausages, eggs and toast. Those are the basic shapes.

Once they are in some sort of orser and correct proportions, the drawing can be refined by adjusting the complex curves etc.

I hope that makes some sort of sense. I know what I mean but not sure I have explained it well.

[NeilF92]

Here's where I am at the moment. Believe it or not, this is an improvement over some previous efforts.

It'd be easier if I had a real aircraft in the back garden - at 1/72 scale the measuring units (e.g. cockpit length) are just too small to use reliably at this stage. Similarly with translating angles, there's not much margin for error.

I've not paid enough attention to negative shapes either. These seem especially important when getting the wings right.

Neil, could you say more about what you mean by photo distortion? I wasn't sure if you meant the tendency of cameras to exaggerate foreshortening (do they have that tendency?) or some other effect it has on the subject. Even better if you could provide an example.

Thanks, Matthew

Yes -- the elongated wing or fuselage is the main kind of fault I had in mind .

Lens distortion is a whole subject to itself and I’ve added a few links here that give a fair amount of info about the topic .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspective_d...n_(photography)

http://www.khulsey.com/photoshop_tutorials...correction.html

http://www.digitalimagemagazine.com/blog/f...ference-photos/

http://toothwalker.org/optics/distortion.html

Usually it's the near wing that is elongated but other problems can occur.

The pictures below illustrate what went wrong when I chose to view a Blenheim from too far away when creating a 3d geometric projection - much the same as would occur if an aircraft was photographed wrongly - in this instance the near wing is too short and the far one too long .

The red marker shows the correct placing - the blue is the incorrect version.

Some photographs will be more or less accurate and some quite badly distorted - I have no ready examples to show - but I’ve seen plenty of magazine pictures with obvious faults.

One thing you can do is check that the lines in the photo obey the normal rules of perspective I.e. converge to a distant point . If they don’t - have a good look and a think about it.

Cockpit or cabin glass may simply wobble the image as in a hall of mirrors.

p.s You will struggle with small 1/72 models when freehand drawing - probably better to practice on random real lif objects even if they aren't planes

Sorry I can’t be of more help .

cheers

Neil

Edited October 10, 2010 by NeilF92

[larkie]

Matthew

Try putting down some guidelines and marker points, very lightly, before commencing.

For example, It might be worth drawing a small line at the tip of the nose and one at the tail.

Your Hurricane will be that long.

I get the impression that you draw directly, which makes errors with proportions more likely.

It helps to think of tangential orthoganal or isometric boxes surrounding your subject that can be used as reference points.

Also check negative shapes between details.

Also, try to think of a hierarchy of forms rather than being concerned with details from the start.

Just think english breakfast to start with rather than a composite of details.

It is just sausages, eggs and toast. Those are the basic shapes.

Once they are in some sort of orser and correct proportions, the drawing can be refined by adjusting the complex curves etc.

I hope that makes some sort of sense. I know what I mean but not sure I have explained it well.

Thanks walrus - that's excellent advice and you've explained it extremely well :)

A few of those last sketches I posted were done with quite a bit of measuring (believe it or not!). But I think I just lost track of the overall subject and got too bogged down with abstract angles and lines. I like your 'hierarchy of forms' idea - in fact I think this might be one of the main things I've been doing wrong. I.e. not thinking in terms of simplified sub-sections. Well, now I really am going to shut up and do some practising. Thanks again for replying.

[larkie]

Some photographs will be more or less accurate and some quite badly distorted - I have no ready examples to show - but I’ve seen plenty of magazine pictures with obvious faults.

One thing you can do is check that the lines in the photo obey the normal rules of perspective I.e. converge to a distant point . If they don’t - have a good look and a think about it.

Cockpit or cabin glass may simply wobble the image as in a hall of mirrors.

p.s You will struggle with small 1/72 models when freehand drawing - probably better to practice on random real lif objects even if they aren't planes

Sorry I can’t be of more help .

cheers

Neil

Thanks again for an excellent reply. I shall be checking out all of those links in the next few days.

I suppose in the end it just boils down to practice, but I've now got a much better idea of where that practice should be headed.

CHEERS!

[crookedmouth]

Thanks wkennerley.

And thanks NeilF92 for excellent advice.

I've just about finished sticking together an Airfix Hurricane Mk II, so I'm going to try a few drawings from this instead and see if it brings better results. For me, the lines are the most important thing so tracing's a definite no - they've got to be mine so I'll have to learn the hard way .

Cheers, Matthew

well here was me thinking "he traced, that, didn't he?"

Looks like you've got the knack.

[larkie]

well here was me thinking "he traced, that, didn't he?"

Looks like you've got the knack.

Well, hope to get there one day!

Thanks