Bill Dunn's 71 Sqn Spitfire Mk II

[3DStewart]

Hello all

Opinion seems divided on what it should be. All I've got is an orthochromatic photo taken on the 27th August 1941, the day he became an ace, and because of the colour shift it could be either. The regulations say it should have been grey/green two weeks earlier, but his memoirs say brown/green, though he could have remembered wrongly if it was a recent repaint. He was badly injured on the 27th, which could well have been distracting!

Regards

DP

[sorry, my original post had the wrong year in the title, which I've now edited to the correct year - 1941]

Edited September 7, 2010 by Detail Police

[MilneBay]

Hello all

Opinion seems divided on what it should be. All I've got is an orthochromatic photo taken on the 27th August, the day he became an ace, and because of the colour shift it could be either. The regulations say it should have been grey/green two weeks earlier, but his memoirs say brown/green, though he could have remembered wrongly if it was a recent repaint. He was badly injured on the 27th, which could well have been distracting!

Regards

DP

If it was 1940 it would be green/brown.

[mhaselden]

If it was 1940 it would be green/brown.

I thought 71 Sqn was equipped with Hurricanes in 1940 - they replaced the 3 ex-Belgian Buffalos that were originally sent to the Squadron...or am I mistaken????

[Dave Fleming]

Can you share the picture?

It's always been a matter of discussion as to exactly how quckly after the introduction of the new scheme aircraft would have been repainted.

[Edgar]

Leaving aside the obvious "typo" (now corrected, I see,) it should be remembered that, as well as the main colours,the order said that the aircraft should have a yellow stripe added to leading edges (specifically of Spitfires and Hurricanes.) On ortho film yellow appears black, so, unless there is an obvious black stripe running to halfway along the l/e, it's unlikely to have been repainted.

Recently, I found, during a pre-war exchange of signals, a "complaint," from one senior officer, that the normal complement, for spraying equipment, was one spraygun per airfield, and he suggested that one per Squadron would be better. I didn't find the response (if, in fact, there was one,) but, if things hadn't changed, one can imagine the fun and games that might ensue, as Squadrons tried to get all of their airframes repainted, with only one gun available. The instructions only gave the Squadrons 10 days in which to paint all of their aircraft, and earlier instructions said that a maximum of two coats could be sprayed over the existing paint, and ailerons should have their paint washed off, before repainting, otherwise there would be problems with balance. In contrast to this idea of everything happening by a particular date, Maintenance Command were not told of the change until 6 days afterwards, and Supermarine didn't amend their drawings until the 22nd.

Personally, if the pilot says green/brown, why disbelieve him; given the possible situation, at the time, I'd say there's a distinct likelihodd that he's right.

Edgar

[Jaffe284]

Thought grey/green only appeared with the Mk V, and never was used on earlier models?

[Edgar]

It wasn't just on the production line; the order went out to all operational units, so they were expected to do the repaint, whatever Marks they were flying at the time. Our (previously) local Mk.I, AR213, was green/grey by the end of the war, as is the preserved Mk.I hanging in the IWM.

Edgar

[3DStewart]

Here's the photo:

Going on Edgar's advice I think I can see a black section of the leading edge, suggesting yellow on the LE. In which case it will be grey/green.

Yes, no, maybe?

Regards

DP

[Opadag]

No I don't see the dark stripe that Edgar mentioned, I see the roundel yellow as black but I think the LE is a light shade, maybe due to the direction of the sun.

[Dave Gibson]

Here's the photo:

Going on Edgar's advice I think I can see a black section of the leading edge, suggesting yellow on the LE. In which case it will be grey/green.

Yes, no, maybe?

Regards

DP

As far as I can see, that aeroplane does not have dark earth - it would be much darker, given the orthochromic film. I learned a few months ago that "Silent Movie" actors used blue make-up to get a stronger flesh effect when orthchromic film was used. Look at the light sky band and the light area where the dark earth/ocean grey should be.

However, I can see no evidence of a yellow LE stripe. The dark area is not dark enough and doesn't extend close enough to the wing root.

Thanks for bringing this up. The same build is on my bench and I was about to paint it dg/de.

Dave.

[Test Graham]

I entirely agree that Dark Earth would look much darker on ortho film.

However, the point I was planning on making was that your belief on whether the aircraft was repainted or not might depend upon whether you think that, at the time, orders were intended to be obeyed or were considered merely optional. Now I tend to think that the lower ranks did as they were ordered, at least on matters quite so readily checked as the colour of their aircraft. And repainting some eighteen aircraft in ten days doesn't seem a particularly onerous task for a squadron of airmen.

[Dave Fleming]

Definitely grey I'd say - showing the signs of lightening that Ocean (& other bright blueish) Grey did in ortho. Note the dull wartime blue on the roundel is not lightened, unlike the pre-war bright blue, which did.

[Doug Rogers]

My money would definitely be on Grey. I think the contrast between the dark green and dark earth was much less than is displayed in that photo.

[Plastic Hacker]

In all the discussion about this aircraft, I have not seen any mention of the eagle marking or the name "Ceylon II" that are shown on the 3d-kits instruction sheet. Are these markings correct for the 27 August 1941 photo?

[The original Kit Builder]

If that aircraft is OG/DG, the dopers should have been tech charged.

If it has been repainted, it is recent enough that the machine still carries A type roundels, yet huge areas of paint have peeled off.

I note that it is also carrying the b scheme. Was this retained when the colours changed? I have never noticed whether the original pattern was retained after the change.

There have also been comments about whether orders were ignored for some reason. No they weren't, but theynwere also treated with a dose of practicality, just as they are today. Priorities would have been assigned and the reality of doing the job with limited resources would have been as real then as now. Don't forget, it's not just the putting new paint on, it's also hours of stripping, masking and dismantling, followed by waiting for paint to dry, before bringing the next aircraft in.

Wirh the possibility of there being only one spray-gun at an airfield and only one spray bay, you can add an awful lot of time to the execution of any order issued by someone who is very likely to be not only a senior officer, but also aircrew, with little understanding of engineering timescales.

[Graham Boak]

I don't see such an ideal set of circumstances. It would work like that at the MUs, surely, but not out on the front-line airfields. Like their Luftwaffe equivalents, and presumably after giving the airframe a good wash, the new colours would be sprayed on top of the previous ones and the markings touched up. There's no sign on any peeling on the light colour. "Huge areas" is a bit of an exaggeration - but I would expect them to be touched up fairly rapidly.

[mhaselden]

The main areas of "peeled off" paint on that image are on the leading edge of the fin and just above the 'X' code letter. I think the latter is battle damage - looks like a sizeable hole in the fuselage. That could lead to shrapnel striking the fin, causing the paint chipping (not peeling) there.

Great photo, BTW. Thanks to 3DStewart for sharing it.

[The original Kit Builder]

The main areas of "peeled off" paint on that image are on the leading edge of the fin and just above the 'X' code letter. I think the latter is battle damage - looks like a sizeable hole in the fuselage. That could lead to shrapnel striking the fin, causing the paint chipping (not peeling) there.

Great photo, BTW. Thanks to 3DStewart for sharing it.

Thanks for pointing that out. I had missed the hole and, therefore the connection to the damaged paint.

Graham, I worked alongside RAF painters and finishers for many years and know first-hand the preparation necessary for even a rush job like the 4 tornadoes painted at St Mawgan, for Gulf War 1, which took a week. There are certain things that have to be done and they take time.

A dedicated spray facility with a drying oven might speed things up, but they still need time and in the 1940's the RAF had no such facility. Furthermore, modern paints dry far more quickly than those used then.

[Graham Boak]

I don't doubt for a minute your experiences of what happens nowadays, having worked in industry with such spray shops. But in WW2 aircraft were painted "in the field" without the benefit of such facilities. It didn't happen very often in the RAF, but the fighter squadrons were not withdrawn from the line nor fully re-equipped when the change came the Day Fighter Scheme. Much as happened during the change-over to Sky from black/white undersides, the squadrons were left to get on with it and they did. No, it couldn't happen overnight, but with simple planning the shortest time would be the time taken for the one spray gun to spray a Spitfire, multiplied by the number in the unit. If they had another spray gun from somewhere, cut that in half. Add some time to prepare the first, and for the last (one or ones) to dry. The undersides would seem to be the main problem, because of the difficulties of access.

The result would have been of lower quality than the Tornados, but the job would have been done in less time than a month. No, I don't know of any source that would back that statement up, but Fighter Command did not withdraw from operations for any time, let alone that long.

Perhaps Nick Millman can comment on the respective drying times. I suggest that at least the cellulose-based paints wouldn't take a particularly long time.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Graham Boak