RAF Sky Blue No.1

[maltadefender]

Hi all,

On the vexed question of hues, undersides of RAF fighters for the use of, does anyone know the best way to get a workable Sky Blue No.1 going?

Thanks in advance... let the party begin!

[Nick Millman]

Is this in the wrong place, were there really RAF vehicles with Sky Blue No.1 undersurfaces or are you just hoping it doesn't get noticed here?

[maltadefender]

Is this in the wrong place, were there really RAF vehicles with Sky Blue No.1 undersurfaces or are you just hoping it doesn't get noticed here?

Oh poo - help please Mods - this is an aircraft question after all!!!

Thanks Nick.

Now then, it may be an apochryphal story but apparently some Fighter Command aircraft had their undersides painted in Sky Blue No.1 following the fateful (in modelling terms!) order of June 6 1940 to go from black/white to Sky Type S undersides.

I quote from the FlyPast Battle of Britain special: 'Research, conducted in the late 1990s by Paul Lucas and others, on surviving artefacts, shows that in addition to the official Sky colour 'Eau-de-Nil' (No.16), and Sky Blue (No.1) were found on many artefacts. There was also significant evidence of a Sky Grey, sometimes overpainted with one of the Sky colours, which could support reports of black and light grey undersurfaces.'

In the light of this research, recent profiles of 610 Squadron Spitfires and 32 Squadron Hurricanes have been revised to show what I think is Sky Blue No.1 if it's the sort of aquamarine hue that's being used in the profiles - is that right and is there a close match?

Time to saddle up!

Edited August 19, 2010 by maltadefender

[lasermonkey]

White Ensign Models does Sky Blue No 1 in their Colourcoats range of enamels (along with everything else you might need for a BoB era plane: Eau de Nil, MAP Sky Blue, Sky Grey and, of course, Sky!)

A rousing Huzzah for WEM!

[maltadefender]

White Ensign Models does Sky Blue No 1 in their Colourcoats range of enamels (along with everything else you might need for a BoB era plane: Eau de Nil, MAP Sky Blue, Sky Grey and, of course, Sky!)

A rousing Huzzah for WEM!

Thank you!!

[stevehnz]

You got off with that lightly didn't you? 'Spose theres always time though.

Steve.

Edited August 19, 2010 by stevehnz

[Nick Millman]

'Research, conducted in the late 1990s by Paul Lucas and others, on surviving artefacts, shows that in addition to the official Sky colour 'Eau-de-Nil' (No.16), and Sky Blue (No.1) were found on many artefacts. There was also significant evidence of a Sky Grey, sometimes overpainted with one of the Sky colours, which could support reports of black and light grey undersurfaces.'

All well and good but what perhaps should have been stated was that extant paint on the surface of artifacts was found to match the colour standards 'Eau-de-Nil (No.16) and Sky Blue (No.1). I know it seems pedantic but worth mentioning again that there is a difference between a paint colour standard and the applied paint. The colour values of the extant paint surface and the basis for this matching were not cited. I know from personal experience how easy it is to match an extant paint surface to a colour standard but does this mean it was actually painted in that colour?

It may be that in the absence of a better understanding of the appearance of the colour Sky units referred to colours in the British Standard, including Eau-de-Nil and Sky Blue No.1, and matched to them (or even obtained ready made paints for those colours - but for aircraft?) but with the whole of the current information available that seems to be more a possibility than a probability. Mixing to the Sky formula from the primary colours it is also quite possible to achieve appearances very close to Eau-de-Nil and Sky Blue so the evidence from artifacts may reveal as much coincidence as deliberation.

The extant paint on the surface of artifacts from A6M2 Zero B11-124 matches closely to Wal-Mart's 96273 "River Bank" but I would hesitate to make a statement that the Zero was painted with Wal-Mart 9723 or that Mitsubishi had matched the paint to Wal-Mart 96273. I realise Mr Lucas' conclusion was much less tenuous than this but even so, the nature of the colour and its pigments make his proposition no more than a possibility. It is perhaps equally valid to mix the primary colours - white, yellow oxide, prussian blue - or even the stores available colours - white, yellow, blue - to arrive at the variables for unit applied Sky substitutes. In fact experiment using stores available paints such as white, yellow and blue to substitute for the Sky formula does indeed result in rather stronger hues like Eau-de-Nil and Sky Blue No.1.

From a modelling perspective it may be just as easy to use the White Ensign paints but from a historical perspective it is perhaps premature to jump to conclusions about the definitive identification of the paint colours. In the modelling world the difference between a hypothesis and a fact seems to get very quickly blurred.

I'll see your WEM Eau-de-Nil and raise you my home mixed Sky substitute!

Nick

[AnonymousAA72]

'Research, conducted in the late 1990s by Paul Lucas and others, on surviving artefacts, shows that in addition to the official Sky colour 'Eau-de-Nil' (No.16), and Sky Blue (No.1) were found on many artefacts. There was also significant evidence of a Sky Grey, sometimes overpainted with one of the Sky colours, which could support reports of black and light grey undersurfaces.'

All well and good but what perhaps should have been stated was that extant paint on the surface of artifacts was found to match the colour standards 'Eau-de-Nil (No.16) and Sky Blue (No.1). I know it seems pedantic but worth mentioning again that there is a difference between a paint colour standard and the applied paint. The colour values of the extant paint surface and the basis for this matching were not cited. I know from personal experience how easy it is to match an extant paint surface to a colour standard but does this mean it was actually painted in that colour?

It may be that in the absence of a better understanding of the appearance of the colour Sky units referred to colours in the British Standard, including Eau-de-Nil and Sky Blue No.1, and matched to them (or even obtained ready made paints for those colours - but for aircraft?) but with the whole of the current information available that seems to be more a possibility than a probability. Mixing to the Sky formula from the primary colours it is also quite possible to achieve appearances very close to Eau-de-Nil and Sky Blue so the evidence from artifacts may reveal as much coincidence as deliberation.

The extant paint on the surface of artifacts from A6M2 Zero B11-124 matches closely to Wal-Mart's 96273 "River Bank" but I would hesitate to make a statement that the Zero was painted with Wal-Mart 9723 or that Mitsubishi had matched the paint to Wal-Mart 96273. I realise Mr Lucas' conclusion was much less tenuous than this but even so, the nature of the colour and its pigments make his proposition no more than a possibility. It is perhaps equally valid to mix the primary colours - white, yellow oxide, prussian blue - or even the stores available colours - white, yellow, blue - to arrive at the variables for unit applied Sky substitutes. In fact experiment using stores available paints such as white, yellow and blue to substitute for the Sky formula does indeed result in rather stronger hues like Eau-de-Nil and Sky Blue No.1.

From a modelling perspective it may be just as easy to use the White Ensign paints but from a historical perspective it is perhaps premature to jump to conclusions about the definitive identification of the paint colours. In the modelling world the difference between a hypothesis and a fact seems to get very quickly blurred.

I'll see your WEM Eau-de-Nil and raise you my home mixed Sky substitute!

Nick

I wish I'd said that!!!

AND as Michael JF Bowyer said many years ago....

"During May home-based fighters began to wear new under surface colours. Silver was certainly applied to some aircraft, evident on Spitfires in June. Predominant were pale shades of Blue, but some Hurricanes I saw at Debden and Duxford had deep blue undersurfaces. These variations were presumably due to the fact that dope was mixed at the stations. Usually the Sky tint , which was meant to be blue, was more accurately a pale shade of green caused by about a 4% addition of yellow to the mix. At the time it was commonly referred to as duck egg green, but it later revceived the official and less accurate designation of Duck Egg Blue. later the shade was re-named Sky."

[maltadefender]

Well... I've ordered some RAF Sky Blue No.1 and I'm going to use it on my second BoB Group Build.

Nick - great points and thank you for them. I like the challenge that we've been left trying to work these colours out - and the way it makes you think more about the subjects you're modelling.

For me now the hue itself is less of a problem than trying to work out how the subject aircraft managed to switch squadrons for a month for no apparent reason!

Edited August 19, 2010 by maltadefender

[lasermonkey]

According to the Spitfire Camouflage 1938-1940 article in the November 1982 issue of Scale Aircraft Modelling (still a really good reference) Nos 266 and 603 Squadrons "appear to have used silver until the new paint arrived".

I guess we'll never know for sure whether the colours matched by Lucas were indeed off-the-shelf paints, but having already mixed up batches of "duck egg blue", "duck egg green" and "sky blue", I'd much rather be able to buy something off the shelf myself, and the WEM paints are probably as good as anyone will be able to come up with, and they are excellent paints after all.

Incidentally, we used to use BS 381c No 101 Sky Blue at work. There's an aerosol of it knocking around somewhere....... :-)

[Edgar]

For me now the hue itself is less of a problem than trying to work out how the subject aircraft managed to switch squadrons for a month for no apparent reason!

It was known for Squadrons to swap aircraft, when one was relieved, for a rest. The "resting" Squadron would take clapped-out airframes, and leave their newer mounts for those continuing the fight.

Incidentally, if you look under another thread on Sky (where it's supposed to be ,) during a visit to Hendon's library, together with a "loan" of BS381C from my old firm, I've been able to find no evidence that 101 Sky Blue had any equivalent colour, in "H.M.G. Aircraft Series," during the war. Certainly, no.1, in that series, was not blue.

Edgar

[GrouchoMark2]

I recently had cause to stare at a Gannet for 6 hours-no way it's 'Sky' colour could be described as any shade of blue- sky blue, duck egg blue, greeny blue, turquoise or whatever!!!

Good for you Maltadefender-go for it.

Groucho (now possibly colourblind)