Centurion Mk.3

[pigsty]

My new neighbour saw my stash on display in the conservatory* and it's sparked some interest. (So, it is possible to get people interested in models even if you don't have a High Street shop!) He'd like to while away the winter evenings building a Centurion like the ones in which he was a driver/gunner while on National Service. (Alright, so he's 77 - but it's still technically new blood!) He's shown me the photos and from them and the date (1951) I'm fairly sure it was the Mk.3 he was driving.

Now, we all know AFV Club's Centurions are the current standard and the old Tamiya / Academy / Modelcraft job is better avoided. Unfortunately AFV Club's range doesn't go further back than the Mk.5/1 in Australian service, whereas the old Tamiya clunker is a Mk.3. However, the differences between a Mk.3 and a Mk.5/1 don't appear to be great - but I'm not really an expert on the Centurion. Can anyone provide a quick list of the main changes that would need to be made to back-date the AFV Club kit? (Worry not about the decals - they'll have to be sourced from somewhere entirely different, I suspect.) Or would it be easier just to buy both and rob the Tamiya kit to fit out the AFV Club one?

* they won't stay there, and the decals are safe out of the heat. The only problem is that all the box art is going blue as the yellow ink fades.

Edited August 16, 2010 by pigsty

[Shar2]

Wasn't the main difference the gun? The Mk III had the 20 pounder, and the Mark 5 had the 105mm L7.

[pigsty]

Wasn't the main difference the gun? The Mk III had the 20 pounder, and the Mark 5 had the 105mm L7.

That was the Mk.5/2. The Mk.5/1 had the 20pdr too, but in the AFV kit it has the bore evacuator with the peculiar fins (what are they, incidentally?), whereas the Mk.3's gun had none. One small problem with the AFV kit may be that the metal gun has a collar for attaching the evacuator, which would need somehow to be removed.

[Tigerausfb]

The turrets are different. Lionmarc do a replacement. Also there are differences in the stowage bins etc etc

Andy

[Biggles]

Hi

I regret I cannot remember the exact differences off hand. I do remember that I bought the Lion Marc turret for the Cent 3 (I'm going to be doing the Korean War version), and you will need the early 20pdr gun (the one with the short muzzle counterweight). AFV Club do sell the 20pdr barrel separately.

Without wishing to push other websites too much (!), I would recommend visiting www.missing-lynx. If you type Centurion into the search box you will get a number of hits - some of which deal with the 3 and how it differs from the 5.

Mike

[pigsty]

Stap me, that's nearly as expensive as the kit!*

I'll peruse Missing Lynx as soon as I can get to a computer that's slightly less prudish, but at this rate, either John the Postie will have to slum it with an Aussie Centurion or I'll have to try for a Tamiya one too.

* mind you, have you seen the price of the Hobby Fan Strv 104 conversion?

[Andrew Jones]

The turrets are different. Lionmarc do a replacement. Also there are differences in the stowage bins etc etc

Andy

Not much difference in the turrets, loaders hatch was moved, otherwise turret shell was the same. Remember many years ago converting a Tamiya Mk3 to a Mk 5, so it shouldn't be too hard to backdate the AFV Club kit.

[Tigerausfb]

Agreed not too hard but for a new modeller maybe it might be. So we have to relocate loaders hatch, add rear hatch and change the roof (writing from work but sure AFV's turret is the 40796 casting rather than the earlier), remove loaders persicope, remove overpressure valve, change the stowage bins, barrel, buy or build a canvas cover for the mantlet, change the spare track and lights positioning on the glacis...anything else I've forgotten while not having Dunstans book to hand? Hopefully AFV will come up with a Mk.3 one day.

Andy

[Alfisti]

That was the Mk.5/2. The Mk.5/1 had the 20pdr too, but in the AFV kit it has the bore evacuator with the peculiar fins (what are they, incidentally?), whereas the Mk.3's gun had none. One small problem with the AFV kit may be that the metal gun has a collar for attaching the evacuator, which would need somehow to be removed.

Hi,the fins you mention were for sighting by eye by the commander for the canister rounds at close quarter.HTH.

Dave.

[Ivan]

Hi,the fins you mention were for sighting by eye by the commander for the canister rounds at close quarter.HTH.

Dave.

They were actually counterweights Dave.

[tango98]

Here's some stuff posted by one of the knowledgeable folk over at ML - hope it's of use

Cheers

Dave

CENTURION TURRETS

Mk 1 two types with or with out polstern

MK2 different with rear escape hatch slightly smaller turret

Mk3 intialy all mk3s were to have 17pdr. Then changed to a type 20pdr

Mk3 build with rear hatch welded

Mk3 build with out rear hatch.

Mk3 casting bungs under rear bustle are different in size to mk5

Loaders episcope and moving of wireless operators hatch was done at BASE WORKSHOPS or on REBUILD. Some never had the hatch modification done.

Browning is made them MK5s

MK5 new turret side walls thicker at base and flat top looks like a mk3 but has been milled flat has rounded back end

MK5 INCORPORATES new episcope, moved hatches. blanking plate where 2inch mortar was rear wall starts to get square and flat

Mk5 same as above but has no blanking plate

MK 5 Late build turret this is a late build turret front angle is less and turret height is 40 mm lower, it is even thicker at the rear and at the base, this is why it has more cut outs on the corners and rear normally three on back plate plus casting bungs under rear bustle are different the rear is very square

Mk7 same as Mk 5 late build lower and incorporates 6 bolt hole recesses for gunners sight.

Mk8 same as Mk 7 but no holes also had split commanders copular

Mk9 same as mk7

Mk 10 build this different again. Slightly lower by 40 mm thicker sides and rear, top plate is wider and gap around wireless operators hatch is different. Also had split commanders copular

All centurions up to mk7 were built as mk 3s and all photographs say this but when you look at the id plates inside the vehicle is when you start to get the surprise. Sold or built as MK 3 from factory but what they got were MK5s

This is where confusions starts

The main difference between mk3 & 5 is besa to browning.

75% of mk5s came out the factory with type “B” barrel

[pigsty]

Oh dear oh dear oh dear ...

Looking again at the AFV Club kit - which could hardly be described as straightforward - I think I may just go for the old Tamiya job instead. I know it's a bit of an old nail, but for a first-timer it'll probably do.

[tango98]

Hi Seán,

Actually and apart from the fiddly suspension arms, the AFV Cent builds up nicely.

Have you considered dropping a Tamiya turret on an AFV hull to get a Mk 3? I'm no Cent expert by any stretch of the imagination but I think that the only other visible major difference is that for a Mk 3 you'll have to delete the two front return rollers.

HTH

Dave

Also, here's a bit more from one of the knowledgeable blokes on ML regarding the different marks of Cent:

A41 Mk 1:- built 1944 – 1948, Armed 17 Pdr Mk 6 (76.2mm) 20mm Polsten replace

later on by 7.92mm Besa. 100 built.

A41A Mk 2:- built 1945 – 1948, Armed 17 Pdr Mk 6 (76.2mm) 7.92mm Besa. 250 built.

Mk 3:- built 1948 – 1956, Armed 20 Pdr 6 (83.4mm). 7.92mm Besa. 2833 built. at least three versions of turret .

A41T Mk 4:- not produced but was planned to have a 95mm Howitzer gun.

FV4011 Mk 5:- built 1956 – 1958, Armed 20 Pdr Mk 1 (83.4mm) .30 browning. 221 built. New turret design 4 differant versions of turret

Mk3 Fitted with Browning CO-AX Machine Gun Became an Mk 5

FV4011 Mk 5/1:- Mk 5 up armoured to Glacis plate

FV4011 Mk 5/2:- Mk 5 with 20 Pdr replaced by 105mm L7A1. No up armoured to Glacis plate fitted.

FV4011 Mk 6:- Mk 5 Up armoured and fitted with 105mm L7A1

FV4011 Mk 6/1:- Mk 6 Fitted with Infa Red Equipment, Rear Stowage basket.

FV4011 Mk 6/2:- Mk 6 Fitted with .50 Ranging Gun and not fit. No Infa Red Equipment, Rear Stowage basket fitted.

LR:- if Mk 3,5.6 Fitted with a 100Gallon bolt on fuel tank at the rear then it would be Mk 3LR,5LR,5/1LR,5/2LR, 6 LR,6/1LR& 6/2LR

FV4007 Mk 7:-built 1953 – 1960, new designed hull Armed 20 Pdr Mk 1 (83.4mm).30 browning. 775 built new turret design

FV4012 Mk 7/1:- Mk 7 up armoured to Glacis plate

FV4012 Mk 7/2:- Mk 7 with 20 Pdr replaced by 105mm L7A1. No up armoured to Glacis plate.

FV4012 Mk 8:- built 1956 – 1960 Mk 7 Hull, contra-rotating cupola and resilient mantel Armed 20 Pdr Mk 1 (83.4mm).30 browning. 108 built new turret design

FV4012 Mk 8/1:- Mk 8 up armoured to Glacis plate

FV4012 Mk 8/2:- Mk 8 with 20 Pdr replaced by 105mm L7A1. No up armoured to Glacis plate.

FV4015 Mk 9:-1959 only one built was an Mk 7 Up armoured and fitted with 105mm L7A1 Gun.

Mk 7:- up armoured and fitted with 105mm L7A1 Gun became FV4015 Mk 9.

FV4015 Mk 9/1:- Fitted with Infa Red Equipment, Rear Stowage basket

FV4015 Mk 9/2:- Mk 9 Fitted with .50 Ranging Gun. no Infa Red Equipment, Rear Stowage basket fitted.

FV4017 Mk10:- built 1959-1960 Mk8 with up armoured to Glacis plate, 105mm L7A1. But has new chevron type louvered engine & gearbox decks. Last tank built was 03DA03 30/03/1962. In total 155 built. New turret design

FV4017 Mk11:- is a Mk 5 with Infa Red Equipment, Rear Stowage basket, Fitted with .50 Ranging Gun, up armoured to Glacis plate & 20 Pdr replaced by 105mm L7A1.

FV4017 Mk12:- is a Mk 7 with Infa Red Equipment, Rear Stowage basket, Fitted with .50 Ranging Gun, up armoured to Glacis plate & 20 Pdr replaced by 105mm L7A1.

FV4017 Mk13:- is a Mk 8 with Infa Red Equipment, Rear Stowage basket, Fitted with .50 Ranging Gun, up armoured to Glacis plate & 20 Pdr replaced by 105mm L7A1 or a

Mk 10 with Infa Red Equipment, Rear Stowage basket, Fitted with .50 Ranging Gun.

[Alfisti]

They were actually counterweights Dave.

Ah yes,just re-read my ref source,indeed they are and were introduced with the mounting of the 50cal ranging gun.Thanks for the correction and apologies if this caused any confusion.

..........Dave.

[pigsty]

Have you considered dropping a Tamiya turret on an AFV hull to get a Mk 3? I'm no Cent expert by any stretch of the imagination but I think that the only other visible major difference is that for a Mk 3 you'll have to delete the two front return rollers.

You or I might do this, but if I suggest to John that he needs two kits to make one tank, he'll have a fit. And who could blame him?

[tango98]

Ah, good point. In that case he'd probably be just as happy with the old Tamiya Cent.

cheers

Dave

[pigsty]

Well, I've found an old Tamiya Centurion, and John is delighted with it. (It's so old it has all-Japanese instructions, a motor, and two tiny tubes of what might once have been glue!) We're off to Dorking tomorrow to perv the new Sea Vixen stock up on paint and such. So, quick question: for a Korean-War vintage Centurion Mk III - which dark green? Deep Bronze Green, or the older SCC colour? And (just in case I have a complete brain fart) - recommendations for White Ensign or Humbrol paint?

[Bomber_Harris]

Sean

At Duxford in the MT workshop behind the Land Warfare Hall, we are currently (Very Slowly) in the process of restoring a Mk.3 Cent, and as far as i know the plan is to make it into a Korean War example.

I will ask the question about the colour and let you know.

Also if you need any photo's of the real thing just let me know, (although i'm not going to be up there for a couple of weeks).

Richard

[pigsty]

Thanks for the offer, but it turns out she's going to be brown. John was in Egypt for two years (pre-Suez, I think) and is going to do her in some sort of sand colour. I'd still be interested, though.

This is going to be very much an out-of-the-box first-timer's build (he's only 78, after all) so I don't think we'll be able to do justice to photos, either!