Paul Bradley Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 (edited) OK, Hunter fanatics, two quesitons for you, as I've read conflicting opinions: 1. What caused the "blue note" and why is it called that? 2. Why were the Mk.6 and 9 known as the "big bore" Hunters - what was different about the Avon? Just a couple of little mysteries I'd like to clear up!! Edited October 4, 2007 by Paul Bradley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard E Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 1. What caused the "blue note" and why is it called that? I always understood that it was due to the airflow over the airframe. Wonderful noise, wish I could find an example I could use as the ringtone for my phone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 2. Why were the Mk.6 and 9 known as the "big bore" Hunters - what was different about the Avon? These machines had a larger diameter jet-pipe due to a higher flow from later model Avon engines. There's a thread on here where Edgar and other clever people discuss the subject in detail that would be worth searching out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 2. Why were the Mk.6 and 9 known as the "big bore" Hunters - what was different about the Avon? There in lies a question! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Aero Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 The 200 series Avons have a bigger dia jet pipe than the 10- series. It's very apparent on the Canberra PR.9 as to that on a B.2. Blue note is a Jazz term and I think the Aircraft noise is due to resonance in the jet pipe at certain throttle settings. Sapphire engined types used to have a most perculiar warbling note when they taxied. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 (edited) OK, Hunter fanatics, two quesitons for you, as I've read conflicting opinions:1. What caused the "blue note" and why is it called that? 2. Why were the Mk.6 and 9 known as the "big bore" Hunters - what was different about the Avon? Just a couple of little mysteries I'd like to clear up!! Hi Paul, Here's one of "John Aero"(club)s 1/48th scale detail sets, designed to improve the Academy F6 or FGA9 kits, which show the difference between the Avon 100 "small bore" or Sapphire engined Hunters and the "large bore" Avon 200 series. The earlier marks had a distinct "upsweep at the rear of the tail pipe...... The "small bore" is on the left... Edited October 4, 2007 by Bill Clark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Here's one of "John Aero"(club)s 1/48th scale detail sets, I'm still embarrassed at how long it took for me to add 2 plus 2 & link John with Aeroclub Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 I'm still embarrassed at how long it took for me to add 2 plus 2 & link John with Aeroclub It's OK Mike, we won't tease you about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 It's OK Mike, we won't tease you about it I'll believe that when I don't see it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 We always believed that "blue note" was given that title because it was very similar to the sound that could be squeezed out of a jazz trumpet. A former pilot of the F.2 Hunter, which used to live at Duxford, said that the Sapphire rumbled, in flight, always giving the impression that it was going to pack up, but it never did. Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Bradley Posted October 4, 2007 Author Share Posted October 4, 2007 These machines had a larger diameter jet-pipe due to a higher flow from later model Avon engines.There's a thread on here where Edgar and other clever people discuss the subject in detail that would be worth searching out. Ah, I missed that during my search yesterday..... Useful stuff! Was any consensus reached on the difference in diameter, or did I miss that too? Thanks to everyone for replying. That jazz connection is interesting - I wouldn't have thought of that. Jazz was particularly popular in the early Fifties, so it makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousA667 Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 That jazz connection is interesting - I wouldn't have thought of that. In music 'Blue' notes are where the musician deliberately flattens either the third, fifth or seventh note in the scale - ever so slightly out of tune. It's what makes Blues/Jazz so distinctive. Presumably 'Blue Note' Hunter's played a distinctly 'flat' tune! peebeep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tompot Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 OK, Hunter fanatics, two quesitons for you, as I've read conflicting opinions:1. What caused the "blue note" and why is it called that? 2. Why were the Mk.6 and 9 known as the "big bore" Hunters - what was different about the Avon? Just a couple of little mysteries I'd like to clear up!! I believe that the "Blue Note" is caused by airflow over the gun ports. It's some thing that is not heard on two seat hunters, so this would point to it not being caused in the jet pipe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary West Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 1. What caused the "blue note" and why is it called that? Forgive me Paul - Doesn't Harold Melvin take the blame for this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffclark7 Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 Forgive me Paul - Doesn't Harold Melvin take the blame for this? Evening Gary Just come across this site, is it your work? http://www.geocities.com/g111258/index.html Cheers Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenMG Posted October 12, 2007 Share Posted October 12, 2007 (edited) I believe that the "Blue Note" is caused by airflow over the gun ports. It's some thing that is not heard on two seat hunters, so this would point to it not being caused in the jet pipe. That's correct. The "bluenote" is primarily caused by airflow over and through the gunports. It only occurs over a certain speed and prevailing atmospheric conditions have an impact as well. On a cool, calm day in a F.6A or FGA.9 the note will occur beautifully at around 450 KIAS. As already suggested, not all Hunters are able to produce the note. 'Big engined' Hunters without blast deflectors are the ones you want - so that's primarily the F.6A and FGA.9. Twin-tubs can't do it and the Swiss Hunters can't do it - depite what some people will try and tell you! Of current flying Hunters FGA.9 XE601 can produce the bluenote perfectly. F.6A XF515 can also do it but not quite as well. That's because (I think) it's been fitted with an electric starter system, the batteries and other gubbins of which live in the gun pack hence affecting the airflow through the gun ports. F.6A XF516 also produced the bluenote to perfection but, of course, was sadly lost in a crash a few years ago. As regards the engine question - yes, the 'big engined' Hunters were those fitted with the 200-series Avon (10,000lb thrust) - so that's the 203 of the Hunter F.6/F.6A and the 207 of the FGA.9 as far as the RAF is concerned. The RAF T-birds were fitted with the 'small bore' Avon 121 and the earlier single-seaters the Avon 115 (Mk. 1 & 4) or Sapphire 101 (Mk. 2 & 5). These 100-series Avon and Sapphire engined aircraft had a narrower diameter jet pipe and therefore a different shape to the tail cone as others have already described. They also had an additional lever in the cockpit for the High Pressure Fuel Cock so if you do a conversion from the Revell F.6 and you're really, really fussy you'll need to add that!!!!!! Edited October 13, 2007 by StephenMG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Bradley Posted October 12, 2007 Author Share Posted October 12, 2007 Whoa, thank you! Stephen, that's pretty darned comprehensive! You work with Hunters? Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenMG Posted October 13, 2007 Share Posted October 13, 2007 You work with Hunters? Not exactly, but let's just say I know a bit about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 Seen as there seems to be lots of Hunter interest here, I should mention that having finished my big Vulcan book for Crecy (out in a week or so), I'm now tackling the Hunter, so if anyone has anything to add by way of photos, drawings, stories, information, pointers to ex pilots or groundcrew, anything like that, do please drop me a line. It should be the biggest Hunter book produced to date so I'm on the prowl for interesting stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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