Blue, Blue, My Love Is Azure Blue - and happily some of our paints are too 😀

[sapperastro]

We have Xtracolor here in Aus? I remember they were being imported years ago, and then vanished. Same with the Xtracrylix. Who is getting them these days?

[Michael louey]

Hi Sapperastro,

 

The only 2 stores I recall in Melbourne that had xtracolour were Snowy Mountain Models and Showcase models, both sadly closed now.

 

I've heard there was an outer suburbs place that had some old stock but can't recall its name.

 

Cheers

 

Michael

[Casey]

Hello. I am practicing bit of (on purpose) necromancy here, but this color seems to be quite elusive for acrylics users.

 

Here is the best result I've achieved so far using acrylic paints:

 

 

I've achieved this by matching the color to the original spectral curve.

 

Purely in math there is an theoretical recipe using Golden Fluid Acrylics, in MASS parts:

 

 

I've mixed it and added 40% (mass) of Ultra Matte Medium from Liquitex to the mixture to get the same level of matt as original paint.

 

And here is how the above mix measured from the sample above on same spectrophotometer:

 

 

For me this recipe is really close enough.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Casey
Fixed image links

[keefr22]

Don't understand a word of that, but the colour looks great!

 

Keith

[Casey]

17 minutes ago, keefr22 said:

Don't understand a word of that, but the colour looks great!

Thank you!

 

It is my scientific way to find out a best mix of professional range acrylics:

 

https://goldenpaints.com/products/colors/fluid

 

I am going to definitely use this recipe for my next Azure blue spitfire.

 

_{I can't believe this thread is more than 12 years old... that shows how strongly people can feel about a shade of blue And I thought I was color-crazy.}

Edited July 29, 2022 by Casey

[John]

Coincidentally I've been thinking about this myself. I was busy throwing some of Precision Paints excellent Azure Blue at my P-40 build in the Revellogram GB when I started to wonder if the situation for our acrylic brethren had improved any since the last time we looked at it. Us enamel users are well served now with 3, or at least 2 and a half given that Humbrol have withdrawn 157, good matches. 157 isn't that difficult to find though.

 

In the spirit of enquiry I ordered 4 acrylic paints that weren't available the last time I looked. They are :

 

 

plus Humbrol acrylic 157 in a dropper bottle, which hasn't arrived yet.  I'll post the brush outs shortly but one thing I can say straight away is that the 2 AK colours aren't the same... 

 

Humbrol 157 should be spot on, shouldn't it...?

 

John

 

 

[sapperastro]

20 hours ago, Casey said:

Hello. I am practicing bit of (on purpose) necromancy here, but this color seems to be quite elusive for acrylics users.

 

Here is the best result I've achieved so far using acrylic paints:

 

 

I've achieved this by matching the color to the original spectral curve.

 

Purely in math there is an theoretical recipe using Golden Fluid Acrylics, in MASS parts:

 

 

I've mixed it and added 40% (mass) of Ultra Matte Medium from Liquitex to the mixture to get the same level of matt as original paint.

 

And here is how the above mix measured from the sample above on same spectrophotometer:

 

 

For me this recipe is really close enough.

 

Very nice. If a formula could be made from Golden So Flat paints, you wouldn't need to worry about the matte medium (and the paint is brilliant for painting models as is)

[sapperastro]

1 hour ago, John said:

Humbrol 157 should be spot on, shouldn't it...?

Well...we will see.

 

This reminds me, I have a pot of Hataka blue line Azure blue sitting around here. I should check that out myself. I only have the Colourcoats version to check against though, as I don't have your book with the swatches.

[Casey]

11 minutes ago, sapperastro said:

Very nice. If a formula could be made from Golden So Flat paints, you wouldn't need to worry about the matte medium (and the paint is brilliant for painting models as is)

Maybe could, if I have all those paint data I did not pick at start them because there are some limitations: the pigment range is limited and they always contan flattening agent, making glossy or satin paints with them not really a good option.

 

Also the paint finish is something a lot of modellers do change on the fly.. You know, gloss varnish at everything, decals and weathering, then maybe matt varnish... if you do it that way the paint finish you start with is more a liability than asset...

 

[keefr22]

1 hour ago, John said:

Humbrol 157 should be spot on, shouldn't it...?

 

 

Was that said tongue in cheek John....?!

 

Keith

 

 

[Casey]

2 hours ago, John said:

AK colours aren't the same... 

Mythical Scale Factor???

[Scott Hemsley]

John.... in my experience, never brush out AK colours with the goal to compare them to a colour chip  ... airbrush them!  You'll find the results quite different and much closer to what is advertised. Unfortunately, I've found that they're only one of the paint mfgrs I've tried over the years that I've been modelling (some 55+) that have a problem with colour matching of their paints ... brushed vs sprayed.  Maybe I should try 'lightening' them and matching to the adjacent sprayed portions, prior to any touch-up work up with a brush?

 

Case in point, I've a jar of RAF Ocean Grey (RC288).  In the jar, it looks to my eye, more like Dark Sea Grey or 'seaweed green' as I sometimes refer to it.  It brushed out like that to the point where I thought I got a mislabelled jar.  Upon spraying it onto a paint mule, my opinion of the AK Ocean Grey changed dramatically.  At this point in time, it's the best flat RAF Ocean Grey I've come across (your opinion and that of the colour police, may vary).  Either way, it just looks right to me   

 

To a lesser extent, I've made a similar discovery with their RAF  Dark Green (RC286).  Some may claim the brushed colour is much closer to the RAFM chip that many here are familiar with,  but when brushed ... it is decidedly darker than the sprayed version.  I've a RFI that features a Sabre Mk.6 here on BM (A look back - A tail of two Swords - Ready for Inspection - Aircraft - Britmodeller.com).  If you look on the extreme front of the port side nose of the Mk.6, you'll see where I had to touch up the Dark Green with a brush after I finished decaling, so spraying wasn't an option.

 

Moral of story?  I now withhold judgement of my AK paints until I test them out with the airbrush because what it looks like in the jar (or how it brushes) isn't necessarily how it dries when sprayed.

 

Scott

 

BTW, since we're discussing colour, the Sabre 5 is Model Master's RAF Dark Green and Compucolour (old but still perfectly good) or Model Master's Extra Dark Sea Grey - I forget which with AeroMaster PRU undersides.  The Sabre 6 is done up in AK's RAF Dark Green, Compucolour (old but still perfectly good) or Model Master's Extra Dark Sea Grey - I forget which  and Model Master PRU Blue.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Scott Hemsley

[Casey]

4 hours ago, John said:

In the spirit of enquiry I ordered 4 acrylic paints that weren't available the last time I looked.

I am really looking forward to seeing those results!

[stevehnz]

8 hours ago, John said:

Humbrol 157 should be spot on, shouldn't it...?

Maybe, their online splotch shows a colour distinctly dark & muddy, a bit like the old Hu 157. Hopefully it is as accurate as most of their splotches are & the real thing turns out OK.

Steve.

[Casey]

3 minutes ago, stevehnz said:

Maybe, their online splotch shows a colour distinctly dark & muddy, a bit like the old Hu 157. Hopefully it is as accurate as most of their splotches are & the real thing turns out OK.

 

Since I know now it is fully possible to get a pretty close match using commercially available acrylics pigments, I do not see any technical reason Humbrol would not be able to do it. I am looking forward for @John sample of Acrylic 157 and how it goes with other vendors - and keeping fingers crossed for them.

[John]

On 7/30/2022 at 7:08 PM, Scott Hemsley said:

John.... in my experience, never brush out AK colours with the goal to compare them to a colour chip  ... airbrush them!  You'll find the results quite different and much closer to what is advertised. Unfortunately, I've found that they're only one of the paint mfgrs I've tried over the years that I've been modelling (some 55+) that have a problem with colour matching of their paints ... brushed vs sprayed.  Maybe I should try 'lightening' them and matching to the adjacent sprayed portions, prior to any touch-up work up with a brush?

 

<snip>

Doesn't seem to be the case here. My brush out of AK Air 11845 RAF Azure Blue is about the best acrylic match I've seen so far:

 

 

It could maybe use just the merest hint of red but I'd use it without hesitation. 

 

AK RC291 Is a bit too strong a blue:

 

 

Putting the 2 AK colours together you can see there's a difference. It's a bit more pronounced in real life than in the photo:

 

 

Mission Models MMP-092 - not if you've got a better alternative:

 

 

Hornby's current recommendation, 89 Middle Blue:

 

 

Best Harry Enfield voice - "Oy, Hornby, No!"

 

21 hours ago, stevehnz said:

Maybe, their online splotch shows a colour distinctly dark & muddy, a bit like the old Hu 157. Hopefully it is as accurate as most of their splotches are & the real thing turns out OK.

Steve.

 

Here's hoping 😀

 

On 7/30/2022 at 5:25 PM, sapperastro said:

Well...we will see.

 

This reminds me, I have a pot of Hataka blue line Azure blue sitting around here. I should check that out myself. I only have the Colourcoats version to check against though, as I don't have your book with the swatches.

 

Sovereign Hobbies Azure Blue is spot on, so if the Hataka paint looks like that you're fine.

 

21 hours ago, Casey said:

 

Since I know now it is fully possible to get a pretty close match using commercially available acrylics pigments, I do not see any technical reason Humbrol would not be able to do it. I am looking forward for @John sample of Acrylic 157 and how it goes with other vendors - and keeping fingers crossed for them.

 

We know Humbrol can do it because their reformulated enamel Azure Blue is excellent. Their enamel and acrylic paints are made by different contractors but presumably they use the same information. I'm looking forward to see what we get.

 

John

[Casey]

2 hours ago, John said:

presumably they use the same information

My biggest fear is they may use "Make the cheapest recipe possible that is still somewhat similar color" as their matching criteria... For large scale production, this is probably what I'd use...

 

This is the problem of commercial hobby paints, the bigger they are, the more incentive there is to cut this 5 cents per bottle of 'unnecesary' violet pigment from recipe.

 

Mixing my own colors gives me the luxury of doing 'the best match regardless of cost'. My pigments database becomes more accurate with each real paint sample I am preparing, and it already feels good to see the predicted (simulated) results to be that close to reality.

[John]

I don't think manufacturers are necessarily skimping. The matching criteria over the years seems to be what I've come to call "The Tyranny of FS595", the assumption that every colour can be matched to a FS595 equivalent and the part of the operation doing the actual manufacturing, in house or an external contractor, are given the FS595 reference and are asked to match it, which they do. 

A lot of the time that's good enough of course, but there are also examples of where it doesn't work and MAP Azure Blue is a case in point, especially since manufacturers who understood what they were trying to match achieved it with commendable accuracy. 

John 

 

[Casey]

1 hour ago, John said:

The Tyranny of FS595

Or 'Tyranny of Pantone' since they have color recipes available for all their public colors... Azure blue equivalent seems to be missing from them too.

[John]

I don't know if Pantone is widely used in the paint industry, in my experience it's more common in printing. However FS595 matches aren't unusual:

 

 

 

In other news, and I'm quite excited about this :

 

 

John

[JackG]

Many hobby paint brands will add an FS number to their label, perhaps because the system is so popular with modelers.   Don't think that it necessarily means that that is what their formula was matched to.

 

According to Nick Millman's studies, no FS value is a good match to Azure.   35231 is too dark with a measured difference of 7.80, while 35240, though closer at 5.43, is still too dark.

 

 

regards,

Jack

[John]

Lifecolor UA 098 is pretty much a perfect match for 35231 so I've no reason to doubt that's what they were aiming for. They did a good job too. 

 

I've still to check Mission Models against FS595.

 

John

[stevehnz]

10 hours ago, John said:

 

In other news, and I'm quite excited about this :

 

 

John

It looks better than their online photo, at least it shows a degree of the violet colour the real thing has. Fingers crossed.

Steve.

[Casey]

1 hour ago, stevehnz said:

It looks better than their online photo, at least it shows a degree of the violet colour the real thing has. Fingers crossed.

Steve.

I am also really excited about the extra large "Made in the UK" sign and "Gen 2". I so wish they removed old *autocensored* stock and just replaced it with the new formulas, since now there is no way to even select that option it in their shop.

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

18 hours ago, John said:

However FS595 matches aren't unusual:

 

At the risk of sounding sour or cynical, that's because it's cheap and easy. Most commercial paint tinting machines and software packages are either supplied with, or offer as relatively inexpensive extras, FS595 tinting formulae.

 

It's still possible to get that wrong, because different brands of commercial pigment tints are slightly different - and there are examples of (mostly Spanish and Italian brands) who can't even get FS595 colours right, probably because of this.

 

Push button > something comes out > sell it

 

At best, just using FS595 means you can shortcut the time consuming and cumulatively expensive route of searching for better reference materials which often carry different gravitas and needs consultation with someone fluent in that language who is also clued up enough to understand the subject, yet doesn't have a non-justifiable bias themselves - all of which can be rather difficult, then going about the process of iteratively developing tinting formulae for each of the colours you wish to produce. Instead you can just ask on a forum what FS595 is closest to MAP Azure Blue and make that, or quicker and cheaper still, just browse IPMS Stockholm's website.

 

Ultimately, there's little advantage to getting anything correct. People will buy it simply because you tell them it's what they need. There will always be a handful of people around the fringe who actually care, but mostly we are scoffed and laughed at by the "I've no idea what right looks like but if it looks right it is right and it looks right to me" brigade. We don't really impact sales figures. If getting things wildly wrong mattered, some very successful brands would have vanished years ago.