Blue, Blue, My Love Is Azure Blue - and happily some of our paints are too 😀

[Dave Fleming]

Tony:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munsell_color_system

So now I need to find a tin of 'old' azure blue for my Catalina......

[Nick Millman]

Hiya Nick,

By new Airfix Wildcat are we talking ugly looking Lynx offspring or the piston engine carrier fighter?

By the way you totally lose me when you refer to Munsen, M-145, 5.67 etc, I know that they mean something as you most certainly know your stuff but my brain just shuts off as it means nothing to me!! If we were talking face to face I`d probably glaze over, nod my head, totally agree with you and then walk off scratching my head non the wiser! Does it refer to shades of colour against a fixed colour swatch?

Please don`t take this the wrong way, I`m just letting you know that some of us lesser mortals (well me at least) have no idea what it means! I have got some printed papers and tables which refer to Munsen and have FS numbers everywhere but again,.....brain freeze I`m afraid.

All the best mate,

Tony O

Sorry Tony. It's the USN carrier fighter I meant! M-485 refers to the USN paint colour designation for Non-Specular Blue Gray. The others to the Munsell colour system as linked by Dave. So bearing in mind the new book the old 157 might indeed be good for those Malta Spits.

It's one of the necessary evils of communicating and comparing colour when you cannot just show it as in real life. I'm afraid Photobucket is no longer an option for me to show chips here and FS595B already has too much to answer for in misleading people. When paints are measured in spectrophotometry, for example, the values are often converted to Munsell and then compared across other colour systems, like FS595B, RAL, BSi 381 etc. Munsell provides a scale of colour whereas the other systems just catalogue specific colours for specific uses. A similar system is Methuen but the colour chart books are as rare as hens teeth. I usually try to include as many values as possible so that people can calibrate or triangulate. I should probably link to the online hex # which would allow people to see the colour but most of those sites have quite dodgy comparisons to FS 595B etc.! Here for example is the hex# for the Elliott M-485 Munsell colour mentioned:-

http://www.perbang.dk/rgb/54636B/

I think I'll just call it a day. There isn't much interest in the science and to be fair I've come to the conclusion that it really doesn't matter much on models anyway. It's quite amusing when colour gets argued over ad infinitum and someone wishes there was a colour photo of the subject. Then when one turns up they argue ad infinitum over whether it is genuine or colorised and what colours are actually shown, mostly it seems from the point of view of what they want the colours to be.

Nick

PS I'm always more than happy to help with colours and verifying comparisons if I can. Modellers, researchers, budding authors and authors seeking, for example, to plot MAP colours against their closest FS595B equivalents before publication, know where to find me...

[Dave Fleming]

I think I'll just call it a day. There isn't much interest in the science and to be fair I've come to the conclusion that it really doesn't matter much on models anyway. It's quite amusing when colour gets argued over ad infinitum and someone wishes there was a colour photo of the subject. Then when one turns up they argue ad infinitum over whether it is genuine or colorised and what colours are actually shown, mostly it seems from the point of view of what they want the colours to be.

Please don't! To paraphrase Dana Bell, It appeals to the historian/scientist in me! We can paint our models anything that looks about right, but some of us like to know the facts and history!

[Greenshirt]

Please don't! To paraphrase Dana Bell, It appeals to the historian/scientist in me! We can paint our models anything that looks about right, but some of us like to know the facts and history!

+1 Nick.

I have zero ability to create your analyses and the numbers you provide circle around the color(s) until I feel good about a particular pot, and any drops I need to add to make close, scale etc. please keep it coming, someday I'll have a solid reference for all paints...until Humbrol decides to change the mix anyway!

Tim

[John Laidlaw]

I'm with Dave and Tim here - the science is fascinating, so please continue! It's great stuff, and I certainly wouldn't have even heard of the Munsell system (or come to appreciate it) if you hadn't written stuff like this. Even though we can't accurately reproduce colours on models, understanding the colour itself, and the "variations within a theme" can be a real boon.

[Navy Bird]

Count me in too, Nick! Your posts are always the most informative. The history behind your analyses are fascinating to me. As an optical engineer I have some sense of colorimetry and spectrophotometry as it applies to light, but I'm not up to speed on measurement systems for paints, inks, etc. I've read up on Munsell and it certainly appeals to the scientist side of my profession. So don't call it a day, we need you and we want you!

Cheers,

Bill

[stevehnz]

Hi Nick, a bit late to this, had to work today . Like other, the pure science of what you do with colours escapes me a bit but the principle behind it has become an important part of my modelling when it comes to colour considerations. I've come to regard your opinions as an important part of the checks & balances that enable numpties like me to balance some of the more out there discussions against a base line, or as close as we'll ever get to this so hang in there please.

Steve./

[Nick Millman]

Thanks for the very encouraging comments.

FWIW I have now measured a sample of the new Humbrol Azure Blue and compared it to the MAP swatch. Difference calculation is 1.84 where 2.0 or less is equivalent to a close match. Well done Hornby.

Here is the working, Humbrol first:-

L*a*b* 63.35 -1.14 -20.65 vs 64 -1.76 -23.65

Munsell 4.3 PB 6.2/5.3 vs 4.1 PB 6.2/6.0

The Humbrol paint is a tad more greyish than the MAP and therefore might give an impression of being ever so slightly darker. As you can see the Munsell chroma value is slightly lower meaning that the saturation is less hence the slightly more greyish/darker impression. The difference is only 0.7 in a scale of 10 so this is not an issue and I only mention it for interest/completeness.

Nick

[Seahawk]

Thanks. Your next mission, should you decide to accept it, is...

Airfix suggest Humbrol 30 for Dark Green in the new Gladiator kit. Has it been reformulated as a better match to MAP Dark Green?

[John]

Thanks for the very encouraging comments.

FWIW I have now measured a sample of the new Humbrol Azure Blue and compared it to the MAP swatch. Difference calculation is 1.84 where 2.0 or less is equivalent to a close match. Well done Hornby.

Here is the working, Humbrol first:-

L*a*b* 63.35 -1.14 -20.65 vs 64 -1.76 -23.65

Munsell 4.3 PB 6.2/5.3 vs 4.1 PB 6.2/6.0

The Humbrol paint is a tad more greyish than the MAP and therefore might give an impression of being ever so slightly darker. As you can see the Munsell chroma value is slightly lower meaning that the saturation is less hence the slightly more greyish/darker impression. The difference is only 0.7 in a scale of 10 so this is not an issue and I only mention it for interest/completeness.

Nick

I think that in and of itself makes all the effort worthwhile. Now, let's hope they get round to changing the colour of the lids!

J

[stevehnz]

Yaayyyy!!!!! Well done Nick & well done Humbrol. I still haven't got around to using the tin that John sent me, the Tomahawk kit is on the bench along with a Bf109e Trop to do an adversary pair but a painted out test patch looks great. & I've repainted the tin lid.

Steve.

[Nick Millman]

Thanks. Your next mission, should you decide to accept it, is...

Airfix suggest Humbrol 30 for Dark Green in the new Gladiator kit. Has it been reformulated as a better match to MAP Dark Green?

Dunno! I don't have a sample of the new paint. One of the ongoing issues, especially if buying from a retail shop, will be not knowing for sure whether a tin contains the old or new versions of the paint until it is opened.

I did find that the new Azure Blue brush-painted a little better than Humbrol paints have been known to recently. But this was brought into sharp focus when, whilst examining some other samples, I found that the only tin of 91 (matt black green) in my possession was from 1983 (yes, sad git that I am I date my tins). Checking the Humbrol tin designs I discovered that it was probably at least 3 years old when I bought it. When I brushed it out the 33 year old results were alarming.

It had the consistency of milk but covered absolutely opaquely in just one coat. The paint went on beautifully smoothly from the brush without dragging or streaking, the white plastic card disappearing under a single stroke of the brush. It was a joy to use. It levelled out tight and thin with no brush marks at all and dried quickly to a smooth, perfectly and consistently matt finish. The colour exactly matched the tin lid.

I realise that people predominantly airbrush these days but it was difficult not to compare that old Humbrol paint favourably with some current brands that need thinning, stirring for about 48 hours non-stop and then still require at least two if not three or more coats to get an opaque finish if applied by brush.

Nick

[Work In Progress]

I suspect the main difference is that half the constituents of your 1980 vintage are now illegal under EU environmental regulations.

[John]

I've got some 30 in the latest style of acrylic pot, so I'm assuming it's the newer formulation. I'll brush some out, but I think that may be better in its own thread.

John

[stevehnz]

I think that may be better in its own thread.

John

Ooooh, yes please, that sounds like a simply super idea.

Steve.

[chrisrope]

Is there a fail safe place to buy the new formula blue, i've got two tins of the old stuff I'll have the Airfix Tomahawk to paint soon so need some of this new paint

Cheers

Chris

[Navy Bird]

Maybe Nick knows the answer to this one, but does anyone have an idea of how Model Master Azure Blue compares to the MAP standard? This is the only sample of Azure Blue that I have, as Humbrol, Xtracolour, Lifecolour, etc. are not easy to find in the US.

Model Master Azure Blue was mentioned earlier in the thread, but those posts are pretty old now...maybe some new information has come to light.

Cheers,

Bill

[Greenshirt]

Bill,

I found MM Azure Blue to be too blue, so added deep red (Testors square jar) until it matched the chip. About 6 drops, IIRC. I also lightened it ever so slightly with a few drops of white. Don't remember how many as I was thinking too much equaled scale effect, at the time, so wasn't too concerned. That was at least 3 years ago (probably longer) as I've since converted to acrylics only.

Tim

[Nick Millman]

Sorry Bill, I don't have a sample of MM Azure Blue to examine but as I understand it is supposed to represent ANA 609, the US equivalent to MAP Azure Blue. I have measured swatches of both and can confirm that they are not the same, the difference calculation being 8.91. The ANA is darker and less saturated, making it appear more greyish. Viewed in isolation the differences are not so apparent. If the MM paint is close to the ANA colour it would be ok for a US desert P-40F. To better replicate the MAP colour you would need to lighten with white and add a little red as suggested by Tim.

Nick

[Navy Bird]

Thanks guys!

One question for Tim, when you added the six drops of red, was this to the complete 1/2 oz bottle (14.7ml) of Azure Blue? That would be my guess, but I wanted to make sure. Also, Testors doesn't make a color called "deep" red, but they do make a "dark" red. Could that be the one you used?

Nick, you're right about the MM Azure Blue meant to represent ANA 609. Says so right on the bottle, only in parentheses. The primary description is RAF Azure Blue. Silly Testors!

Cheers,

Bill

[Greenshirt]

Bill,

It should be a full bottle, yes. The purplish tint was just noticable. And if they sell dark, but not deep, then it was dark I used.

Tim

[davidelvy]

...I found that the only tin of 91 (matt black green) in my possession was from 1983 (yes, sad git that I am I date my tins). Checking the Humbrol tin designs I discovered that it was probably at least 3 years old when I bought it. When I brushed it out the 33 year old results were alarming.

It had the consistency of milk but covered absolutely opaquely in just one coat. The paint went on beautifully smoothly from the brush without dragging or streaking, the white plastic card disappearing under a single stroke of the brush. It was a joy to use. It levelled out tight and thin with no brush marks at all and dried quickly to a smooth, perfectly and consistently matt finish...

Nick

I had a similar experience with a pot of Humbrol Authentic Sky. It is probably of a similar age to your Hu91 and had been unopened for over 30 years. After a couple of mnutes strring I brush painted a small patch with the same results - smoothe, no dragging and a consistendnt matt finish. Oh, and of course, a nostalgic oily smell to take me back to my childhood.

[Nick Millman]

Further to measuring the new Humbrol 157 I have now measured the old Humbrol 157 and compared it to a measured sample of USN Blue Gray (the colour Elliot identifies as Blue Gray 1). The difference calculation is 3.63 and as envisaged in post # 249 I think the Humbrol paint would convey a pretty good scaled/slightly faded impression of the colour. Here is the working, Humbrol first:-

L*a*b* 44.97 -4.68 -7.64 vs 42.53 -7.14 -6.67

Munsell 8.1 B 4.4/2.0 vs 4.5 B 4.1/2.1

So for those who like out of the tin solutions use it on those Wildcats, Dauntlesses, Vindicators and Devastators with confidence - or a Malta Spit...

It could also be used for a scaled/faded PRU Blue (5.3 B 3.9/3.0 - difference calculation 6.13) which is heresy I know.

Nick

[Hardtarget]

Nick, so in theory this 157 is in effect intermediate blue (hu144) or is that a different colour altogether to USN Blue Grey?

Errata, Blue grey was prior intermediate blue i.e before 1942.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Hardtarget

[John]

"Humbrol 254 Malta Spitfire Blue Grey" - like it! Actually I have a partly built Airfix Spitfire V I might just try in on, with new 157 undersides.

John