Obscure Lancaster question...

[Will]

Hello,

chasing some information on B Mk VI's. I've worked out serial numbers, squadrons and a reasonable amount of information regarding their use. However, my library is not extensive, and I have located more photos of B Mk VI's with turrets than without. I am wondering if anyone knows where the information that they were used essentially as EW aircraft without nose or mid upper turrets comes from?

I have a photo of DV170 with all turrets fitted around 1945, and the photo of ND673 (F2-V) that shows it without turrets and spinners was apparently taken in 1947 at a maintainance unit. Other photos show unknown B Mk VI's with turrets (and in some cases, three bladed props), so I'm just confused. I am planning on building one, at this stage it will probably by a 635 Squadron aircraft (either F2-Z or -U) and am thinking with turrets. F2-U was lost with seven crew- I was under the impression that the EW aircraft had additional crew. Any help will be greatly appreciated

Thanks in advance

Bill Watt

[kitnut617]

From what I've read, there was only nine built, and six were used on operations. I've not come across anything yet which says there were used for EW work so this is new news to me.

[Honeybee]

Hi

A friend of mime knew the Canadian pilot Reg Lane and he told him that the MkVI Lanc was easily the best Mk. He flew one on operations, not sure which one, so he'd know

Regards

Paul

[xlpainter]

hi i built ND673 in 48th it was based at horsham st faith i will post pics towards the weekend what book i used was about 100 group which they featured cheers simon

[Alex Gordon]

G'day all,

Shamelessly taken from Wikipedia;

Nine aircraft converted from B IIIs. Fitted with Merlin 85/87 which had two-stage superchargers, giving much improved high altitude performance. The Merlin 85/87 series engines were fitted with annular cowlings similar to the post war Avro Lincoln and four bladed paddle-type propellers were fitted. These aircraft were only used by Pathfinder units; by No. 7 Squadron RAF, No. 83 Squadron RAF, No. 405 Squadron RCAF and by No. 635 Squadron RAF. Often used as a "Master Bomber" the B VI's allocated to RAF Bomber Command (2 being retained by Rolls Royce for installation and flight testing)[16] had their dorsal and nose turrets removed and faired-over. The more powerful engines proved troublesome in service and were disliked by ground maintenance staff for their rough running and propensity to 'surge and hunt', making synchronisation impossible. This 'hunting' is caused by variations in the fuel/air mixture and could over time eventually damage the engine. [17] The B VI was withdrawn from service in November 1944 and the surviving aircraft were used by Rolls Royce, the Royal Aircraft Establishment and the Bomb Ballistics Unit (BBU) for various testing and experimental duties.

Google is not being my friend for photos,however.

Sorry I am not more useful on this one.

[Max Headroom]

Bill

In a previous life I was editor of the Merseyside Aviation Society in house mag 'Flypast' between 1982-84. I certainly remember someone submitting rather nice drawings of a mk. VI at that time. I can't remember if there was an article with it or indeed if anthing was published.

All my mags from the MAS are at my mums back in Liverpool and I will be going over on Saturday to see her so I will rummage around for you.

Of course if there are any ex MAS members out there with the mags to hand..........?

Max Headroom

aka Trevor Green if that helps to jog memories

[Robert A]

Hi Bill,

As has already been said there were only a few of these a/c built, the ones used as master bomber aircraft were fitted with an airborne jammer called "carpet sweeper", which was an adaption of the jammer "carpet". This may be where the idea of them being EW aircraft comes from, the only external evidence of "carpet sweeper" is approximately 6 small dipole antennae on each side of the nose of the a/c.

I'll try and double check this as I'm writing this from memory as my references are currently unavailable.

All the Best,

Bob

[Seahawk]

Photos of Lancaster B.VIs are like hen's teeth so I though folk might be interested in one on page 99 of "RAF and RCAF aircraft Nose Art in World War II" by Clarence Simonsen (Hikoki, 2001). It's an almost head-on shot of a B.VI with engine covers on. Caption says it's JB713 LQ-P of 405 Squadron but relevant markings not visible. The aircraft has a nose turret (though I can't see any guns in the turret), 3-blade props, Rebecca aerials, those 2 little white circles in the nose transparency and small individual code "P" just behind the little window behind the bomb-aimer's tranparency. Undercarriage legs are predominantly in natural metal. And, to anticipate the obvious question, no, no noseart visible.

According to the caption it was with 405 Sq for pathfinder trials and JB713 was lost on 18-19 August 1944 during subsequent service with 635 Sq (by which time, according to Frank Mason's book, it was F2-Z). Mason also said it undertook no operations while with 405 Sq.

Apart from the well-known post-war picture of ND673 F2-V, Mason also has 3 shots of JB675 (which Mason insists was not the prototype but the 3rd Mark III modified to Mk VI) at Boscombe Down in Jan 1944. It has nose and tail turrets, H2S bulge and 3-blade props (though Mason says it received 4-bladers later). No codes. Mason says that, despite service with 7, 405, 635, 7 and 76 Sqs, it flew just one op, with 635 Sq.

HTH

Nick

[Robin]

Bill

In a previous life I was editor of the Merseyside Aviation Society in house mag 'Flypast' between 1982-84. I certainly remember someone submitting rather nice drawings of a mk. VI at that time. I can't remember if there was an article with it or indeed if anthing was published.

All my mags from the MAS are at my mums back in Liverpool and I will be going over on Saturday to see her so I will rummage around for you.

Of course if there are any ex MAS members out there with the mags to hand..........?

Max Headroom

aka Trevor Green if that helps to jog memories

Hi Trevor.

Not really highjacking the thread. But I was one of the founder members of the Merseyside Group of Aviation Enthusiasts (MGAE) in the late 1950s, not sure if this club evolved into the M/S Aviation Society, we used to meet at Burtonwood Airbase and at Speke Airport. I left the area in 1960 to enter the RAF, and occasionally sent in spotting reports from the South of the country. Still involved in aviation and will be at Biggin Hill tomorrow with a party of B of B veterans.

Robin.

[Seahawk]

Postscript

There's also a "pull-out supplement for modellers" on the Lancaster VI by Mike Garbett and Brian Goulding in the September 1970 Aircraft Illustrated. Drawings of he modified nacelles by Alfred Grainger plus photos as follows:

DV170 (first conversion): all 3 turrets, early bomb-aimer window. Standard wartime markings except for C type upper wing. Extensive exhause staining on nacelles.

ND635 F2-V: the usual picture, at Farnborough postwar. No spinners or nose or dorsal turrets. Stripes on fins.

JB675: 3-blade props outboard, 4-blade "for test purposes" inboard. White underwing serial in post-war rounded style visible underwing. No nose turret. White (?) disk above the 2 little circles in the bomb-aimer tranparency.

DV199 (second conversion): 3-blade props, nose and tail turrets, early bomb-aimer window, shrouded exhausts. No codes

ND784: two shots showing AS Mamba turboprop in nose. 3-blade props, no tail turret or H2S. Low camouflage demarcation (DE/DG/yellow) and prototype "P". Type C underwing roundels and black underwing codes in wartime angular style.

For completeness the 9 Lancaster B.VIs were DV170, DV199, JB675, JB713, ND418, ND479, ND558, ND673 and ND784. Of these the following reached squadrons, according to Mason ("The Avro Lancaster", Aston, 1989):

JB675 (7,405, 635, 7, 76)

JB713 (7, 405, 635) Lost as F2-Z in raid on Harburg, 18-19 Aug 1944

ND418 (83, 7, 635 (F2-Q, 9 ops), 582)

ND558 (635: no ops)

ND673 (7, 635 (F2-V, 23 ops))

Martin Streetley's "Aircraft of 100 Group" (Hale, 1984) gives JB675 as F2-U while with 635 and MG-O while with 7 Sq.

HTH

Nick

Edited July 11, 2010 by Seahawk

[Max Headroom]

Hi Trevor.

Not really highjacking the thread. But I was one of the founder members of the Merseyside Group of Aviation Enthusiasts (MGAE) in the late 1950s, not sure if this club evolved into the M/S Aviation Society, we used to meet at Burtonwood Airbase and at Speke Airport. I left the area in 1960 to enter the RAF, and occasionally sent in spotting reports from the South of the country. Still involved in aviation and will be at Biggin Hill tomorrow with a party of B of B veterans.

Robin.

Carrying on the hijack - yes MGAE became the MAS until approx 1985 when it folded due to lack of volunteers. At the same time (!) Air Britain Liverpool emerged with some of the same people. Shortly afterwards it became Air Britain Merseyside. That's now folded too........

Incidentally Dick Ward of Modeldecal fame was an MGAE member and illustrated some of the very early mags.

Meanwhile back at the thread - I will look at my mum's tomorrow as posted above.

MH aka Trevor

Edited June 25, 2010 by Max Headroom

[Seahawk]

"Aircraft of 100 Group" by Martin Streetly is at least one source for the B.VI association with EW.

Not even he is sure whether nose and tail turrets were removed (".. appear to have carried only the four-gun FN-20 tail turret. ...").

Streetly admits that his only sources on what EW equipment was carried by B.VIs are the post-war pic of F2-V and 2 eye-witness accounts.

Streetly asserts "with some certainty" that they carried "'improved' H2S, up to 12 'jammers', MONICA, BOOZER, and 'vast quantities of WINDOW'". He argues that the jammers were probably CARPET II, which was manifested by 2 horizontal rows of 6 short post antennas below either side of the cockpit. Streetly provides a top and side drawing of a 635 Sq B.VI showing CARPET II antennas below the cockpit, BOOZER antenna above the tail turret, MONICA antenna below it, plus a number of WINDOW shutes, aerial fairleads and whip antennas. Some of this he admits is surmise/extrapolation eg the "V" code of ND673 is higher up which suggests to him they were thus placed to avoid something (he argues plausibly WINDOW shutes) installed low down on the fuselage.

He concedes that whether or not an additional crewman was carried is "a total unknown", "but an extra body would most certainly have been useful when WINDOWing".

He also provides a side view colour scheme drawing of ND673 F2-V, showing the dorsal turret area, the top of the nose fairing plus the top of the nose area back to the DE/DG demarcation ahead of the cockpit in grey-green primer. He plumps for the tailplane stripes being yellow over black (I seem to recall someone arguing they were red). Streetly provides some colour scheme details for the various antennas which I'll add if anyone's interested enough.

So: a surprising amount on the B.VI, but perhaps a lot riding on informed interpretation of one fuzzy photo and 2 eye-witness accounts. On the other hand, if Martin Streetly didn't uncover it, I doubt whether it's out there to be uncovered.

Again, HTH

Nick

[Max Headroom]

Bill

I had a look at my MAS magazine stash at my mum's this morning. It appears my

memory was a bit fuzzy. Yes there was a Lancaster VI drawing but no article. I confused this with a four parter on the Lancastrian.

Sorry!

Trevor

Edited June 26, 2010 by Max Headroom

[Andrew]

Nick, Trevor et al,

Thanks for the info regarding these aircraft. I'm contemplating building one in 1/72 and have possibly found a source of engine nacelles in resin, but suspect that I'd need to do a lot more than just cut and replace...... Additionally, I have the choice of that set or another with exhaust shrouds - any idea which would be more appropriate and thoughts in general on using a set intended for modelling a Lincoln (surely if the nacelles were the same or similar...)?

Nick, could I trouble you for a scan of the Garbett and Goulding article from Aircraft Illustrated you mention? I suspect that the Grainger drawings of the nacelles would be especially useful. Many thanks again for the summary of production and use.

Cheers,

Andrew.

[The wooksta V2.0]

Those engines look nice but they look suspiciously like copies of the old DB ones!

[Smudger2]

Hello,

chasing some information on B Mk VI's. I've worked out serial numbers, squadrons and a reasonable amount of information regarding their use. However, my library is not extensive, and I have located more photos of B Mk VI's with turrets than without. I am wondering if anyone knows where the information that they were used essentially as EW aircraft without nose or mid upper turrets comes from?

I have a photo of DV170 with all turrets fitted around 1945, and the photo of ND673 (F2-V) that shows it without turrets and spinners was apparently taken in 1947 at a maintainance unit. Other photos show unknown B Mk VI's with turrets (and in some cases, three bladed props), so I'm just confused. I am planning on building one, at this stage it will probably by a 635 Squadron aircraft (either F2-Z or -U) and am thinking with turrets. F2-U was lost with seven crew- I was under the impression that the EW aircraft had additional crew. Any help will be greatly appreciated

Thanks in advance

Bill Watt

HI,

I read in a modellers data file that the mkVI's initially had 3 bladed props on all four engines but after experimental trials changed to 4 bladed props on the inboard engine nacelles and 3 bladed props on the outer engine nacelles,this aparently stopped the buffeting bumpy ride of the engines,and stayed in this configureation until production of the Lincoln took over.

The mkVI's basicly carried the same armament positions as the previous mk's,exept for the odd few canadian built versions with a Martin gun turret on the top of the fusilage,saying that a lot of late war built lancasters had no top turret if they had buldged bomb bay doors fitted,something to do with offsetting the weight to compensate for the extra payload weight.

Ihope this is of some help,

Regartds SMUDGER.

[Smudger2]

Hello,

chasing some information on B Mk VI's. I've worked out serial numbers, squadrons and a reasonable amount of information regarding their use. However, my library is not extensive, and I have located more photos of B Mk VI's with turrets than without. I am wondering if anyone knows where the information that they were used essentially as EW aircraft without nose or mid upper turrets comes from?

I have a photo of DV170 with all turrets fitted around 1945, and the photo of ND673 (F2-V) that shows it without turrets and spinners was apparently taken in 1947 at a maintainance unit. Other photos show unknown B Mk VI's with turrets (and in some cases, three bladed props), so I'm just confused. I am planning on building one, at this stage it will probably by a 635 Squadron aircraft (either F2-Z or -U) and am thinking with turrets. F2-U was lost with seven crew- I was under the impression that the EW aircraft had additional crew. Any help will be greatly appreciated

Thanks in advance

Bill Watt

Hi,

I have quite a lot of reference books on the lancaster i will look up the books and authors for you so that you can check out the pictures for yourself.

I got myself a couple of 1/72 scale HBM CONVERSION sets of lancaster mkVI's merlin 85's,very nice and unuseual sets,one set with shrouded exhausts and the other set with unshrouded exhausts,as i intend to build two mk VI lancasters.

Regards SMUDGER

[Ed Russell]

I have both in front of me and the Red Roo ones are a bit crisper, have a more defined mesh and have different casting blocks.

The Red Roo are available with shrouds also.

There is a Kits at War decal sheet with F2-V on it.

Somebody said

Those engines look nice but they look suspiciously like copies of the old DB ones! DB = Frog?

[galgos]

You'll find a build feature of a BVI by Ian Collis here: http://lancaster-archive.com/forum/viewtop...f=10&t=1658

Max

[Smudger2]

You'll find a build feature of a BVI by Ian Collis here: http://lancaster-archive.com/forum/viewtop...f=10&t=1658

Max

Hi,

Ian collis's build is very impessive indeed,but if he had chosen the HBM conversion set he wouldn't have had to do all the extra work on the outer nacelle rears as you get this part and the infill stepped part for the inner nacelle,drasticly reduceing the build time let alone the filler work.

If anyone wants an HBM lancaster mkVI convewrsion set, could pass on details of how to get one straight from the guy who produces them.

Regards SMUDGER

[xlpainter]

hi these are a couple of pics i promised this was built many years ago

[Seahawk]

Nick, Trevor et al,

Thanks for the info regarding these aircraft. I'm contemplating building one in 1/72 and have possibly found a source of engine nacelles in resin, but suspect that I'd need to do a lot more than just cut and replace...... Additionally, I have the choice of that set or another with exhaust shrouds - any idea which would be more appropriate and thoughts in general on using a set intended for modelling a Lincoln (surely if the nacelles were the same or similar...)?

Nick, could I trouble you for a scan of the Garbett and Goulding article from Aircraft Illustrated you mention? I suspect that the Grainger drawings of the nacelles would be especially useful. Many thanks again for the summary of production and use.

Cheers,

Andrew.

Every single shot of a Lancaster B.VI in the Garbett and Goulding article and the Mason book shows shrouded exhausts, even ones of trials aircraft and F2-V post-war.

I was going to say that what you really really want is the Paragon conversion set 7247 which contains engine cowlings (with shrouds), engine fronts, prop blades and spinners and outer engine nacelles for a Lancaster B.VI conversion based on the Airfix kit, then the only show in town. Then I noticed that the Paragon engine front lacked the prominent air intake within the radiator intake beneath the spinner, visible in 2 photos of JB675 at various times in her career. This made me wonder whether the DB shrouded Lincoln engines would be a better bet. These depict the intake beautifully but the overall shape of the annular radiators themselves looks a bit out (too broad) compared with the 2 photos of this area and the Grainger drawings I have. Were it me, I think I would put a greater priority on the shape of the main radiator faces, go for the Paragon parts and obscure the missing intakes with judiciously placed prop blades. Anyone contemplating mixing and matching between both sets will find that the DB cowlings are slightly (about 1 mm) bigger in diameter.

Afraid I can't comment on the RedRoo parts: thumbnail photo only.

Re Garbett and Goulding scan, pse check your PMs.

HTH.

Nick

DB = Dave Buttress, an early producer of resin conversion parts. They were to a very high standard and generally stack up very well against today's offerings.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Seahawk

[avroant]

Hello Will,

I expect that this will not be a lot of use to you, but the only little bit of information that I have come across concerning the Lanc VI was a post war picture of DV170 with 4 Merlin 102's in Avro Tudor power plants (which have un-shrouded exhausts) and DV199 with Merlin 85's which appear to show them with shrouded exhausts; the second picture is a bit small and indistinct. Both pictures are in the old PSL book 'Lancaster Classic Aircraft No.6 - Their history and how to model them' buy Franklin & Scarborough.

Ant

[Smudger2]

Hello Will,

I expect that this will not be a lot of use to you, but the only little bit of information that I have come across concerning the Lanc VI was a post war picture of DV170 with 4 Merlin 102's in Avro Tudor power plants (which have un-shrouded exhausts) and DV199 with Merlin 85's which appear to show them with shrouded exhausts; the second picture is a bit small and indistinct. Both pictures are in the old PSL book 'Lancaster Classic Aircraft No.6 - Their history and how to model them' buy Franklin & Scarborough.

Ant

Hi,

Try the HBM 1/72 CONVERSIONS sets, they are produced two sets :-

HBM72012 - LANCASTER MKVI MERLIN 85'S ENGINE SET(UN-SHROUDED EXHAUSTS)

HBM72013 - LANCASTER MKVI MERLIN 85's ENGINE SET (SHROUDED EXHAUSTS)

Both sets contain:-

4x nacelles

2x inner nacelle stepp filletts

2x outer nacelle rear fairings

I have both sets and can send some pictures if you PM me your personal email address.

I reccomend them as they cut down the work load as they are a really fast neat build.

I can even supply you with a set if required!

Regards SMUDGER

[Smudger2]

Hi,

Try the HBM 1/72 CONVERSIONS sets, they are produced two sets :-

HBM72012 - LANCASTER MKVI MERLIN 85'S ENGINE SET(UN-SHROUDED EXHAUSTS)

HBM72013 - LANCASTER MKVI MERLIN 85's ENGINE SET (SHROUDED EXHAUSTS)

Both sets contain:-

4x nacelles

2x inner nacelle stepp filletts

2x outer nacelle rear fairings

I have both sets and can send some pictures if you PM me your personal email address.

I reccomend them as they cut down the work load as they are a really fast neat build.

I can even supply you with a set if required!

Regards SMUDGER

Hi,

There is a lot of valueable information on the MKVI lancaster in the SAM PUBLICATIONS MODELLERS DATAFILE book " THE AVRO LANCASTER,MANCHESTER AND LINCOLN",A COMPEHENSIVE GUIDE FOR THE MODELLER. by Richard A Franks

ISBN 0-9533465-3-6

I have other books each with a couple of MKVI's in,showing all gun turrets in place.

These books are:-

COMBAT LEGEND AVRO LANCASTER by HARRY HOLMES ISBN 1-84037-376-8

GREAT AIRCRAFT OF WWII AVRO LANCASTER by MIKE SPICK ISBN: 978-1-86147-211-3

LANCASTER by CHRISTOHER CHANT ISBN 978-0-7525-8769-1

I hope these books help you.

Regards SMUDGER