Interesting Spitfire Mk I profiles

[lasermonkey]

Whilst searching for info on X4036/AZ*D on No 234 Sqn, I happened upon Mark Styling's artwork/profile site. Ignoring the yellow leading edges, and black serial numbers on the 66 Sqn machines (they should be Medium Sea Grey), I'm intrigued by the inclusion of a few a/c which are depicted with "Type B" fuselage roundels, namely K9959/RN*J of No 72 Sqn (Aug 1940) link and L1000/DW*D of No 610 Sqn (July 1940) link. I haven't been able to find any photographs of these two aircraft, but wouldn't the "correct" type A1 roundels have been added by these dates? Thoughts???

Cheers,

Mark.

[Test Graham]

Yes. The profiles may be correct but the date is wrong.

[brewerjerry]

Hi

Interesting as the profile is done for the date the L1000 crashed, 10-july-40, and the aircraft had always been with 610 since delivery in Oct 39, Likewise for K9959 with 72 sqn when it crashed on 26 aug-40, and had been with them since delivery, may 39.

I suppose it is remotely possible that they never got repainted.

I wonder if the profiler had access to photos of the crashed aircraft.

Cheers

Jerry

[AndyL]

X4036 - don't get confused with the claim that this was lost when being flown by P/O Gordon. It survived to serve with 66 Squadron, and was lost while on strength with 52 OTU at Aston Down. I have a photo (hard copy) somewhere of it covered in earth and looking slightly bent when damaged in an air attack when with 66 Sqn.

P/O Gordon was flying X4035 when killed, and this was confirmed upon the excavation of the site and the recover of P/O Gordon's body in, I think 2004.

Regards

Andy

[brewerjerry]

Hi All,

An interesting photo on flickr

spitfire with type B fuselage roundel Aug 1944.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/18532986@N07/...in/photostream/

cheers

Jerry

[davidelvy]

That is interesting. Does anyone know what those areas of paler paint in front of the fuselage band could be? All three aircraft have them and although the blobs appear irregular they are all broadly similar.

[Edgar]

Probably to do with the Plessey upward-firing recognition discharger, either deleted or covered in some way.

Edgar

[Andrew Jones]

That is interesting. Does anyone know what those areas of paler paint in front of the fuselage band could be? All three aircraft have them and although the blobs appear irregular they are all broadly similar.

Gas detecting paint ?

[stevehnz]

Hi All,

An interesting photo on flickr

spitfire with type B fuselage roundel Aug 1944.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/18532986@N07/...in/photostream/

cheers

Jerry

Anyone fancy a guess at the colour scheme of these, without opening the usual can of worms. I see from the photo edge it is Italian theatre & I get confused as to where/when the desert scheme gave way to European scheme, if it is even possible to define such a thing.

Steve.

[Dave Fleming]

Anyone fancy a guess at the colour scheme of these, without opening the usual can of worms. I see from the photo edge it is Italian theatre & I get confused as to where/when the desert scheme gave way to European scheme, if it is even possible to define such a thing.

Steve.

The Sky band would indicate Day Fighter Scheme, but with the spinner (inthe background aircraft) repainted red

The blobs are almost certainly gas detection paint - in Midstone (or possibly) Dark Earth - the same panels can be seen on the A-36s used by 1437Flight - there would probably have been a corresponding panel on the port nose of the aicraft, designed to tell ground crew if the aircraft had been exposed to chemical agents.

Edited June 21, 2010 by Dave Fleming

[Giorgio N]

There are a few other examples of Spitfire V in Italy and the mediterranean carrying B type fuselage roundels. Those I've seen are JK723, GN-V, and JK446, GN-B of 249 Sqn., JK539 and BR591 of the ABGS and then an unidentified plane of 253 Sqn, the same unit from which the spits in the picture should be.

As to when the desert scheme gave way to the standard Day Fighter Scheme, I'm sure there are AMOs mentioning the fall from use of the desert scheme and the requirements of having planes in DFS... a discussion on the matter was posted probably here or somewhere on the web (HS?). Will have to look for it!

Wojtek Matusiak mentions that probably by mid 1944 all the spitfires in Italy were in DFS. Even before that it is often mentioned that plane started being repainted replacing the mid stone with dark earth. All of this makes perfect sense, as the ground even in southern italy is very different from the desert, with many targets being in areas covered by thick bushes and very little sand apart from a few beaches. By august 1944 the frontline was across the appennines, in central italy, an area where a desert painted plane would have been spotted very easily (although the luftwaffe was in a very bad state by then).

[Edgar]

Gas detection paint was long out of use by then, and it was originally placed so that the pilot could see it, not the groundcrew. Gas hugged the ground, so the chances of any a/c flying through it were nil, unless coming in to land, and putting it somewhere where it would be invisible to the pilot would be utterly pointless. No pilot would have been very impressed at landing in "fog," turning off his engine, then getting out, to see a splotch of red paint on the a/c's spine. There seems to be an idea that ordinary paint could somehow be made into gas-detection paint, but we have a series of 1940s formulae, for the base components, and I'm reliably informed that none of the ingredients have any gas-detecting properties, whatsoever.

Incidentally, it was common practice to paint just red/blue roundels on high-flying VIIIs & IXs, so I can see the reasoning behind the fuselage roundel on that airframe, if it was to be used for high-level interceptions.

Edgar

Edited June 21, 2010 by Edgar

[Test Graham]

What I've seen is not a comment that the normal paint had gas detection possibilities, but that the gas detection paint later came in camouflage colours, which is not the same thing.

Fighter aircraft could be expected to encounter gas at low level if on strafing missions, particularly considering the anti-invasion scenario facing Britain in 1940. The principle, as I understood it, was to warn the ground crew as well as the pilot, as they would be likely to come to harm handling the machine whilst the pilot was still strapped safely inside. Whereas many photos do show the marking where the pilot can readily see it, I'm not so sure that all do. And as suggested, there may have been more than one.

The B roundel is visible on photos of fighters in the High Altitude Fighter scheme, but earlier Mk.VIs and Mk.VIIs with Day Fighter camouflage had standard roundels. These Italian examples are fairly distinctive - it is tempting to suggest that this particular one was just awaiting the white and yellow to be repainted, but it doesn't otherwise look like a full repaint job, does it?

[Dave Fleming]

Gas detection paint was long out of use by then,

And yet they found a panel of Gas detecting paint on the FAA Museum's Corsair - and it was used on vehicles available in Khaki - can't find the references (Ian Huntley perhaps) but somewhere I have a note of a direction on GD paint being available in camouflage colours.

If it's NOT GD paint, then I wonder what it could be - ia similar splodge appeared on more than one aircraft type, that's for sure

From:

http://www.mts.net/~royb/raf_kittyhawK_codes.html

http://raf-112-squadron.org/allied_air_for..._1942_1943.html

Edited June 21, 2010 by Dave Fleming

[Super Aereo]

Gas detecting paint in camouflage colours was manufactured and used on vehicles well up to the end of the war (as related by Dick Taylor in Vol.2 of Warpaint, unless my memory is playing up).

[davidelvy]

I thought gas detection paint was usually painted in a sqaure on the port wing where the pilot could see it. I don't see why it would be an odd shaped blob. I quite like Edgar's suggestion that it is a repair after the removal of a piece of eqipment. This would perhaps explain why the blob appears irregular, but is reasonably consistent across all three airframes, presumably because it is covering a repair patch of similar shape.

[brewerjerry]

Hi

I am glad i posted the link to the photo seems to have started the curiosity, apologies if i have diverted this thread.

I like the theory of a paint repair, but then why not use the correct camo paint colour for the area of the repair ? seems odd they are all the same different colour.

cheers

Jerry

[Super Aereo]

I really don't think they were paint repairs.

See: http://www.mustangsmustangs.us/thehangar/index.php?topic=1170.0 ://http://www.mustangsmustangs.us/theh...p?topic=1170.0

and seen that we are on the subject: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=16170

Please delete the hotlink below if I am breaking any forum rules about hotlinking:

[Super Aereo]

(...) seems odd they are all the same different colour.

And they seem to be roughly of a very similiar shape (also see the photo of the USAAF aircraft above)...

[Julien]

Those are strange?

could it be some type of censor mark? not sure why it would be there though??

Julien

[bobgpw]

I think they are gas detector paint patches or vesicant detector paint as the US called it. It was developed in 1942 and came in paint tins "M5 Paint Liquid Vesicant Detector".

The colour of this stuff is a yellowy green, and if applied to an aircraft I'm guessing that the irregularity is designed to blend into the overall scheme (however daft this may seem!). It is supposed to be olive drab but it certainly doesn't come out of the tin looking like that.

British and US vehicles used gas detector paint and it does work. A friend of mine had a Morris Commercial painted in this stuff (which turned red on contact with gas) and the US vehicles sometimes aplied it within the allied star marking on the bonnet of Jeeps etc. again, it turned red on contact with gas.

The US produced a lot of this stuff, so I'm willing to bet that it actually worked.

Bob

[Ed Russell]

With respect to the roundel on the side of the first Spitfire, the centre looks a lot more like the camouflage colour behind it than the red on the wing roundel. This would support the idea that it is half way through a paint job with the red, white and yellow still to be applied. Also in support, there appears to be a painted over large patch the size of a roundel abaft this one and behind the code letter "A". It's a bit unusual to see a half painted insignia on a plane undergoing fairly extensive maintenance (engine change?) but it is in the field.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Ed Russell

[Super Aereo]

With respect to the roundel on the side of the first Spitfire, the centre looks a lot more like the camouflage colour behind it than the red on the wing roundel. This would support the idea that it is half way through a paint job with the red, white and yellow still to be applied. Also in support, there appears to be a painted over large patch the size of a roundel abaft this one and behind the code letter "A". It's a bit unusual to see a half painted insignia on a plane undergoing fairly extensive maintenance (engine change?) but it is in the field.

I very much doubt that: not only the fuselage roundels are in their corret position (they would not have been painted further back on the side) and the wing roundel reflects light from a different angle, but those particular Spitfires in the photograph were being handed over to 352 Sqn. (1 Sqn NOVJ) for training purposes and would very shortly either get scrapped if u/s or put back in service with Yugoslav markings, which would simply have been painted over the RAF roundels.

[Giorgio N]

Now if these marks are gas detection patches, why do these appear only on planes based in italy ? Did planes used in europe have patches in proper dark green or ocean grey paint ? Or was the threat of gas considered minor in europe ? It is a fact that the Allies feared the use of gas by the germans and were prepared for chemical warfare in italy, as shown by the mustard gas released during the sinking of the John Harvey in Dec.1943, maybe the same reasons were behind the use of patches on italy based fighters ?

[Super Aereo]

I was thinking exactly along the same lines, Giorgio. After the mustard gas was released during the bombardment of the harbour in Bari, taking some precautions would certainly seem a good idea...