Coastal Command Halifax colour questions....

[roym]

Hi All,

Just got home with a Revell re-issue of Matchbox Halifax. Want to do it in the Coastal command scheme due to a sorta local connection but have found an issue.....

On the original Matchbox release the maritime version offered was serial HR792/G with side letter A, from 58 Sqn, St Davids, Wales in 1943(?) -Hard to make out on the internet!)

This has white sides and unders, with Humbrol Hu27 Sea Grey uppers. quoted on the instructions.

See here Linky

The Revell reissue has serial HR744/G side letter O, again from 58 Sqn, St Davids, Wales, 1944. This time, however, the upper scheme is Revell 78 Tank Grey + Greyish Blue79 mix; and Greenish Grey 67, in the standard bomber camo pattern. (Revell paints quoted).

I have only got Humbrol paints, so if that Revell concoction can be translated to Hu colours, please help!

Which is correct? Or was it possible to have two aircraft in the same squadron with different camos?

Also, Revell say the whole interior should be black, Matchbox say interior green with black details. Surely green is correct? Or green cockpit and black nose?

On another issue, I've ordered the Privateer from the LMS, but I think I prefer the old Matchbox USN scheme nose art. Would anyone like to swap decals?

Edited May 27, 2010 by roym

[Giorgio N]

Hi Roy,

I'm not an expert on Halifaxes in Coastal Command service, or on coastal command, however seems to me that the old matchbox boxing proposed an aircraft in the Extra Dark Sea Grey over white scheme. The revell option seems to have the uppersurfaces in the temperate sea scheme of the same etra dark sea grey and Dark Slate grey. This scheme was used on coastal command planes before the upper surfaces changed to edsg only, so both are applicable. I'm sure someone will come with more definite info on when the upper surfaces changed to a single colour and what is correct for each serial number and timeframe.

As to what humbrol number corresponds to these colours I'm not sure, as I haven't used humbrol in a while. I use vallejo for edsg and xtracylics for dark slate grey.

G

Edited May 24, 2010 by Giorgio N

[roym]

Thanks Giorgio, the names will do. Still need to sort out the interiors!

[Deon]

If they're in good nick youre welcome to my Privateer US markings as ill be doing the Aeronavale version

( :{>

[Test Graham]

Giorgio is correct. The change took place in mid-1943, so a 1944 aircraft will be in the later scheme.

[IanC]

Which is correct? Or was it possible to have two aircraft in the same squadron with different camos?

No. 58 Squadron operated Halifax GR IIs in both the grey/white scheme AND standard bomber colours when they were operating from Stornoway in the latter months of the war. By then most ops were night anti-shipping recces in the Baltic, hence the need for darker colours.

Ian

[roym]

Thanks all so far! It's the ones from St Davids as offered in both kits that I'm interested in.

[Alex Gordon]

G'day Roy,

Found these through Google,photos of the upper surface seem to be non existant unfortunately.

Hope this helps.

Inconclusive but useful photo

Helpful photo of the exhaust arrangement

[Test Graham]

That sideview does rather look like the earlier scheme.

The exhausts, however, are non-standard. There were a lot of trials carried out to optimise the exhausts, and this is one of them. It appears to be the basic saxaphone exhaust with an additional ring inlet, presumably for mixing with and cooling the flame.

[roym]

and I just found this here.... linky

January 1943 Large aircraft have just Extra Dark Sea Grey on uppersurfaces,

White undersurfaces and fuselage sides. Hall

1943 ? Code letters change from two, indicating squadron, to one numeral indicating a squadron on a base.

1944 ? Beaufighters and Mosquitos change to Extra Dark Sea Grey uppersurfaces

with Medium Sea Grey undersurfaces and Red codes (occasionally outlined White)

Surely Alan Hall means Sky undersides? (Ross) Hall

mid 1944 Code letters return to two, indicating squadron

1944 ? Beaufighters and Mosquitos change to Sky codes photos

1944 ? Low attack Halifaxes in standard bomber colours Sqdn/Signal

1944 ? Beaufighters and Mosquitos change to Black (occasionally outlined Yellow) codes Hall

Which shows that they got EDSG uppers from 1943, before they got the single letter. Looking again at the Matchbox instructions on matchboxkits.org site it seems they quote their scheme from 1943; and Revell say their scheme is from mid 1944 by when they should have two letters.

I think it's safe to go with the EDSG uppers. I can always paint on the Dark Slate Grey later if needed!

Now then, the interior and wheel well colours!

[Test Graham]

According to Bruce Robertson, in Harleyford's Aircraft Markings of the World

8 Jan 43 Halifaxes diverted for Coastal work to bear Extra Dark Sea Grey finish in place of usual Dark Green and Dark Earth

1 Feb 1943 RAF Coastal Command general reconnaissance aircraft.....white was made the main colour of these aircraft. leaving only the strict plan view in Temperate Sea Scheme.

9 Feb 1943 CC instructions of 1 Feb followed by MAP instructions....front and side views to appear completely white, including engine cowlings and propellor spinners. Serials to be marked in Light Slate Grey. (The distruptive pattern) was no longer necessary and could be replaced by Extra Dark Sea Grey. (In a few weeks, Dark Sea Grey). (Note for European patrol a/c) matt white sides, gloss white undersurfaces.

10 Jun 1943 RAF coastal aircraft worldwide.....all white except strict plan view Extra Dark Sea Grey only.

I think that pins the instructions side down - but what the individual aircraft carried must have depended upon when it was last painted.

[rossm]

According to Bruce Robertson, in Harleyford's Aircraft Markings of the World

8 Jan 43 Halifaxes diverted for Coastal work to bear Extra Dark Sea Grey finish in place of usual Dark Green and Dark Earth

1 Feb 1943 RAF Coastal Command general reconnaissance aircraft.....white was made the main colour of these aircraft. leaving only the strict plan view in Temperate Sea Scheme.

9 Feb 1943 CC instructions of 1 Feb followed by MAP instructions....front and side views to appear completely white, including engine cowlings and propellor spinners. Serials to be marked in Light Slate Grey. (The distruptive pattern) was no longer necessary and could be replaced by Extra Dark Sea Grey. (In a few weeks, Dark Sea Grey). (Note for European patrol a/c) matt white sides, gloss white undersurfaces.

10 Jun 1943 RAF coastal aircraft worldwide.....all white except strict plan view Extra Dark Sea Grey only.

I think that pins the instructions side down - but what the individual aircraft carried must have depended upon when it was last painted.

Thanks for that Graham, I didn't realise that book went into so much detail - must look out for a copy to help update my vague web page quoted above.

As for code letters or numbers the book 'Combat Codes' by Vic Flintham and Andrew Thomas states 58 Squadron at St.Davids used the numeral 1 from Dec '43 when they arrived from Holmsley S (where they also wore 1 from July 43) until August 44. HR744 1-O is quoted as an example for Holmsley S. Air Britain give HR744 as only serving with 58 Squadron and being struck off charge on 23/11/44.

Ross

[Test Graham]

Robertson's (nearly) last 37 pages are given over to a chronology. Obviously it's very hit-and-miss worldwide, but quite strong on UK matters. If you can't find a copy contact me offline, and I'll copy across the full comments, as they apply to CC.

Merrick's book also has a photo of 58/D in the same period, also apparently showing two colours on the uppersurfaces, and commented on to that effect.

I was going to add that CC units coded 1 often omitted this digit, which I still think is true, but caught myself before saying this was true of 58. There is a subscript 1 after the O and the D. Merrick also has a photo of 502/J from the same period, with a subscript 2. I don't think I've noticed any other CC units using this form - Bomber Command sometimes used a subscript 2 for large units where codes had to be repeated, but that was on an individual aircraft basis.

[popeye]

roym,

do you know John aka "canberra kid" here on BM ?

Halifaxes is his second forte after Canberras - why not try getting a pm off to him ?

popeye

[The Velociweiler]

Just another little note with regard specifically to the Matchbox kit - they missed the asymetrical windscreen arrangement that Airfix got right two decades previously. If that sort of accuracy is important for you, you may need to look at the kit transparencies to decide whether you want to live with it?

[Test Graham]

Actually, there's a long list of things that Matchbox got wrong with that kit, and I was biting my tongue on it. To be honest, unless you are prepared for a lot of work, it's better not to look too closely at it and make it as it comes.

However, Falcon do a set which includes a replacement canopy (and noses, and turrets), which is probably available separately from Sq. Signal (see Hannants). Make sure you get the parts for the Matchbox kit, not the Airfix. Aeroclub, when they get going again, can replace the propellors and intakes (you can try Hannants again). Do check for the example you are doing, there are three different shapes and Matchbox only provide two, neither of which is particularly good. Super-detail sets are available from White Ensign Models.

[rossm]

Robertson's (nearly) last 37 pages are given over to a chronology. Obviously it's very hit-and-miss worldwide, but quite strong on UK matters. If you can't find a copy contact me offline, and I'll copy across the full comments, as they apply to CC.

Merrick's book also has a photo of 58/D in the same period, also apparently showing two colours on the uppersurfaces, and commented on to that effect.

I was going to add that CC units coded 1 often omitted this digit, which I still think is true, but caught myself before saying this was true of 58. There is a subscript 1 after the O and the D. Merrick also has a photo of 502/J from the same period, with a subscript 2. I don't think I've noticed any other CC units using this form - Bomber Command sometimes used a subscript 2 for large units where codes had to be repeated, but that was on an individual aircraft basis.

The Warpaint has a photo of HR744 but the wing is across the area where the codes are. The caption says BY:O but I think O subscript 1 is more likely as the 1 is clearly visible after reading Graham's note above. I did think it was something that had been cut off by the wing but there is daylight in between if you look closely. Upper surfaces are most likely one colour but I wouldn't rule out two colours. Also 3-bladed inner and outer propellers are most likely.

I'm personally more interested in 502/J as it may have served at St.Eval in my local area but I don't know the date of the photo (printed in many places) so will have to assume it fits.

There is an expensive Pavla upgrade which replaces much of the nose. Having paid out for it I'm trying to avoid finding out if it still has inaccuracies.

[roym]

Actually, there's a long list of things that Matchbox got wrong with that kit, and I was biting my tongue on it. To be honest, unless you are prepared for a lot of work, it's better not to look too closely at it and make it as it comes.

That was my plan!

While I do suffer from AMS I plan to build this as cleanly as possible, to show to some who have a connection to the (general) area around Pembrokeshire.

These people will not be competition judges (or even modellers!) so OOB is fine. It's biggest exposure will be in my display cabinet. Just wanted to have it painted correctly.

Having said that, Revell had their own and Matchbox's moulds of both the Lancaster and B-17, but have brought out new tools of both. So there may be some hope of another Halifax!

[roym]

If they're in good nick youre welcome to my Privateer US markings as ill be doing the Aeronavale version

( :{>

Thanks Deon, PM inbound shortly.

G'day Roy,

Found these through Google,photos of the upper surface seem to be non existant unfortunately.

Hope this helps.

Inconclusive but useful photo

Helpful photo of the exhaust arrangement

Cheers Alex. Made me even more determined!

Thanks all once again!

Now then, with all this info, should I go to town on the model? Or should I stick to the plan as Matchbox intended?

AAARRRRRRGGGGHHHHH!

Edited May 25, 2010 by roym

[Test Graham]

It may well have been BY:O, as a fairly long-standing member of the squadron, but I agree that it isn't in the photo. Or rather photos, as Merrick's and the Warpaint are different ones. Note that it is still a Series I (Special) as it retains the Merlin XX engine installation with Gallay radiators. These, with the central bulge for the oil cooler, are not provided in the Matchbox kit, but can be got from Aeroclub.

Merrick dates the photo of 502/J2 to summer 1944, the aircraft being lost in October.

Merrick comments in the captions to the 58/O1 picture that the subscript 2 was applied to reserve aircraft in large flights. I don't think that is the case here.

I'd love to have a new Halifax model that required significantly less work, but I'm not expecting it soon and I dread the price!

[Alex Gordon]

G'day Roy,

Good luck with the kit.Thanks to Graham for the exhaust gen.

Still haven't finished mine,built OOB but in store at the moment.Nose to Fuselage joint is (was) a sod.Paint scheme was Humbrols 27 and 102 upper and white lower extending up over the wing and tailplane leading edges.This was based on an article in SAMI about 4 years ago(title-Halifax On Sea) but I cannot remember who wrote it.

[Test Graham]

Can you find the magazine issue? I don't remember seeing that one and may have to look for a back issue.

[Alex Gordon]

A quick look here tells me it's Volume 13 Issue 3,the Flyboys cover.Article by Andy Hazell,and very well done too IMHO.

[roym]

Many thanks Alex. I dug my copy out last night.

Didn't realise I had such an article. It was rather good. While not wishing to down the fine work done by the historical society quoted in the article, I did notice that they said 58Sqn were based in Cornwall when they were actually based in Wales. Whenever I see a glaring error like that I tend to wonder what else may be incorrect with that reference. Unfair, but there you go.

I'm still none the wiser now, as to what way to paint the upper surfaces. Matchbox, and the data shown up in this thread say it should be all EDSG from mid 1943; which is the way I'm leaning towards for a 1944 machine.

Revell and the SAMI article (with Halifax Society references) say Temperate Sea scheme for a 1944 machine.

Any ideas on the interiors? Cockpit interior green or black? Wheel wells white?

[Test Graham]

When faced with any apparent contradiction, the only thing to do is to look at the photos. To me, there appears to be more than one shade on top of the fuselage. Do you agree or not? If so, do the darker patches line up with where the darker patches should be on the camouflage pattern? If so, then there must be a strong presumption of a disruptive scheme. If not, it's monotone and muck. Your decision.

From vague memories of an IWM photo, I'd say the wheel wells - certainly the inside of the doors - were white. This would be for an aircraft delivered as a GR - a converted bomber, or a GR built before the adoption of white, might be different. I don't recall seeing any GR Halifax in the original TSS scheme, however. (Shame - there's another possible subject.) I've no information on the cockpit interiors of the GR.