Ed Russell Posted May 19, 2010 Share Posted May 19, 2010 (edited) Following on from a previous subject (and not wanting to hijack the thread) I wonder if anyone can direct me to references (preferably photographs but profiles are worth a look even if you don't believe them) of RAF Transport Command aircraft, preferably other than Halifaxes or Liberators, in the Temperate Sea Scheme - uppersurfaces of Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark Slate Grey with Azure Blue undersides, which was, from 18 May 1943, promulgated as the official scheme for transport aircraft flying outside of the UK. I have tried a few internet searches without any joy and my references do not yield anything I can find. There was a very nice Anson model in a magazine article recently but even the author cast doubt on the scheme. Edit - noticed the Camo Masks article - hence the subtitle. I'm sure it existed but I guess transport aircraft are not glamorous enogh for photos. Edited May 20, 2010 by Ed Russell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSModeller Posted May 19, 2010 Share Posted May 19, 2010 (edited) Hi Ed If you click on this link and scroll down to a gents name Pondskater (second posting by him), you will find some interesting pieces of information on colours (about Sunderlands But transports none theless), and there is some information about Azure Blue Link HTH Alan Edited May 19, 2010 by LDSModeller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted May 19, 2010 Share Posted May 19, 2010 I have seen colour pictures of Yorks in this scheme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted May 19, 2010 Share Posted May 19, 2010 Air Britain Stirling File pages 69 and 71. I'm sure I've seen some of Warwicks including page 165 of the Profile on it and the IWM Photo collection online here Sorry to be brief, in a rush, Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted May 20, 2010 Share Posted May 20, 2010 Hudson - front cover of Warpaint? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Starmer Posted May 26, 2010 Share Posted May 26, 2010 Following on from a previous subject (and not wanting to hijack the thread) I wonder if anyone can direct me to references (preferably photographs but profiles are worth a look even if you don't believe them) of RAF Transport Command aircraft, preferably other than Halifaxes or Liberators, in the Temperate Sea Scheme - uppersurfaces of Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark Slate Grey with Azure Blue undersides, which was, from 18 May 1943, promulgated as the official scheme for transport aircraft flying outside of the UK.I have tried a few internet searches without any joy and my references do not yield anything I can find. There was a very nice Anson model in a magazine article recently but even the author cast doubt on the scheme. Edit - noticed the Camo Masks article - hence the subtitle. I'm sure it existed but I guess transport aircraft are not glamorous enogh for photos. This scheme is correctly Service Transport Scheme. See 'Famous Bombers Vol.1' Wellington C.XVI, p.70 with painted dummy front and rear dummy turrets: 'Famous Bombers Vol.2', Whitley section p.34 T4149. 'Profile 153', p.13, underside view of T4149; 'Profile 229', p.165 Warwick C.III, HG248. 'Coastal Support and Special Squadrons of the RAF and their Aircraft', J.Rawlings, p.30, 24 sq. Wellington 1A N2990 NQ-D dummy turrets; p. 166, 301 Sq. Halifax C.VIII, PP342 GR-V; p.167 Warwick CIII HG306 OD-P 304 sq.; p.168 Halifax C.III HG238 353sq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Russell Posted May 27, 2010 Author Share Posted May 27, 2010 Thanks to all the respondents so far - some interesting stuff there! Enough to keep a modelling theme going for years. Mike - That's comprehensive!!! What about the Anson? It looks nice but I have never seen a picture. I was sent a picture of a Buckingham also but I thought they were all in nSilver as high-speed transports? This scheme is correctly Service Transport Scheme. See 'Famous Bombers Vol.1' Wellington C.XVI, p.70 with painted dummy front and rear dummy turrets: 'Famous Bombers Vol.2', Whitley section p.34 T4149. 'Profile 153', p.13, underside view of T4149; 'Profile 229', p.165 Warwick C.III, HG248. 'Coastal Support and Special Squadrons of the RAF and their Aircraft', J.Rawlings, p.30, 24 sq. Wellington 1A N2990 NQ-D dummy turrets; p. 166, 301 Sq. Halifax C.VIII, PP342 GR-V; p.167 Warwick CIII HG306 OD-P 304 sq.; p.168 Halifax C.III HG238 353sq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted May 27, 2010 Share Posted May 27, 2010 There is some discussion about the Buckingham. Photos of the prototype and early bombers appear to be in Temperate Land, as expected. The author of the Warpaint discovered Bristol drawings where the Temperate Sea Scheme was specified, and this clearly would be correct for the aircraft in their transport role. I don't see why high-speed transports should be in Aluminium: I don't know of such a scheme being specified. Indeed, there doesn't seem to have been any specific RAF need for such a role - the Buckinghams were simply pushed there for something to do with the production aircraft, which were only needed to keep the workforce together for later projects. Hence their very limited service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Russell Posted June 30, 2010 Author Share Posted June 30, 2010 A-ha - so I can add the C-45 Expeditor to the list by the look of it. Never did find anything about that Anson! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK4m Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 And a Douglas Dakota of course http://www.raftransportcommandmemorial.com/site/lightbox01_files/vlb_images4/image050.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalea Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I'm glad that somebody has raised the subject of the Expediter. Have seen photos of ones in Green/ Brown uppers and , if I recall , SEAC roundels (not 'India White). Have never seen it established what the undersurfaces really were . There was some debate about this when there was a painted-up warbird flying around a few years ago. I also seem to recall one with a whole field of yellow Harvards, reputedly in India , with yellow undersurfaces - appropriate if it was the CO's runaround and it fits with. A.864/44 para 38(ii), P39 of the RAF Museum book. What about the others besides NMF? Regarding the Buckingham, on page 41 of that book ,we find para 45 ' Service Transport Aircraft' uppers EDSG/DSG under Azure blue or Night.It should not be the blue undersurfaces which are questioned , but the assumption of DG/DE on he uppers. Wasn't this discussed when the Valom Buckingham came out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 See post #8. As a fast transport, the Service Transport Scheme is entirely appropriate. The first examples however were built for the bomber role, for which the Temperate Land Scheme applied, and the b&w photos of these early aircraft are entirely consistent with DG/DE/Sky. OK, TSS/STS is very variable in its appearance in b&w, but there's no reason why a bomber should have been painted that way. As opposed to the majority of the production, which will indeed be in TSS/STS as stated on the Bristol company's technical drawing, reproduced in the Warpaint. It is worth chasing other threads on this subject. Polish sources deny the use of TSS, stating that their Halifaxes were in Dark Green and Ocean Grey, and a well-reproduced colour photo of a Stirling transport also appear to be in these colours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 (edited) I'm glad that somebody has raised the subject of the Expediter. Have seen photos of ones in Green/ Brown uppers and , if I recall , SEAC roundels (not 'India White). Have never seen it established what the undersurfaces really were . There was some debate about this when there was a painted-up warbird flying around a few years ago. I also seem to recall one with a whole field of yellow Harvards, reputedly in India , with yellow undersurfaces - appropriate if it was the CO's runaround and it fits with. A.864/44 para 38(ii), P39 of the RAF Museum book. What about the others besides NMF? FAA Expediters were almost certainly TSS. RAF ones I'm not so sure about, but I did raise the question on here a few years back - the question of underside colour has always bothered me as well, especially when they were described as sky, medium sea grey or light blue. There is a pic in Eyes for the Phoenix that looks TSS Here's the a pic that was in Flypast some time back. Edited February 20, 2015 by Dave Fleming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK4m Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) It is worth chasing other threads on this subject. Polish sources deny the use of TSS, stating that their Halifaxes were in Dark Green and Ocean Grey, and a well-reproduced colour photo of a Stirling transport also appear to be in these colours. What do you call "Polish sources" ? Any documents? Orders? Regulations? Or just the statements made 60 years after the war by the very few Polish airmen from No.304 Sq. still alive (and aged 80+)? Being years ago the director of the Polish Aviation Museum I spent many hours on talking with these Men. But - I'm sorry to say - their stories were full of inaccuracies (to say the least), like flying the Hercules-engined Halifax from Italy to Poland in summer 1944 or even swapping engines between Liberators and Halifaxes in Brindisi. Looking at the pictures of Polish Halifaxes C.Mk.VIII http://odkrywca.pl/forum_pics/picsforum16/halifax.jpg http://www.samolotypolskie.pl/samoloty/1161/126/Handley-Page-HP-57-Halifax2 I'm unable to take the darker uppersurface colour as being Dark Green. The contrast is weak and if even we take the lighter colour as being "the grey" it's not sure, that it's the Ocean Grey. The well-known photo of the transport Stirling C.Mk.V https://www.flickr.com/photos/8270787@N07/8685606560/ clearly shows the darker uppersurface colour as greenish at least, but is this the MAP Dark Green? In my opinion it can be Dark Slate Grey while the greyish (lighter) areas are either extensively faded (Extra) Dark Sea Grey or they're freshly overpainted in Sea Grey Medium. Perhaps aginst the regulations, but have a look at the door behind the roundel. Edited February 21, 2015 by KRK4m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyot Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) For Expeditor`s, I really don`t know the underside colour but I don`t think that TSS was applied to them, not even the Fleet Air Arm ones, although I would love to be proved wrong on this! I`ve seen the well known photos of Far Eastern based Expeditor`s and some at the FAAM which have never been published and they jus look like heavily weathered and sun damaged Dark Earth/ Dark Green to me,.......almost blending into each other. Som may even have been Olive Drab/ Neutral Grey? For (some) Liberators, Halifax, York, Stirling, Anson, Hudson, WARWICK, and even King George`s Dak,...... Extra Dark Sea Grey, Dark Slate Grey and Azure Blue are the later war Transport Command colours of choice for me. As many of these aircraft (especially the longer ranged ones) frequently flew through tropical skies the paint tended to fade and become sun damaged very quickly. EDSG was especially prone to sun damage which made it oxidise and fade rapidly while Dk. Slate Grey tended to go darker. Cheers Tony Edited to include Warwick!! Edited February 21, 2015 by tonyot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 For (some) Liberators, Halifax, York, Stirling, Anson, Hudson and even King George`s Dak,...... Extra Dark Sea Grey, Dark Slate Grey and Azure Blue are the later war Transport Command colours of choice for me. As many of these aircraft (especially the longer ranged ones) frequently flew through tropical skies the paint tended to fade and become sun damaged very quickly. EDSG was especially prone to sun damage which made it oxidise and fade rapidly while Dk. Slate Grey tended to go darker. Cheers Tony and Warwick ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyot Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 and Warwick ? Sorry,....yes forgot that one,......edited accordingly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 And a Douglas Dakota of course http://www.raftransportcommandmemorial.com/site/lightbox01_files/vlb_images4/image050.jpg That's an interesting photo. Do we know the identity of this particular aircraft? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 For Expeditor`s, I really don`t know the underside colour but I don`t think that TSS was applied to them, not even the Fleet Air Arm ones, although I would love to be proved wrong on this! I`ve seen the well known photos of Far Eastern based Expeditor`s and some at the FAAM which have never been published and they jus look like heavily weathered and sun damaged Dark Earth/ Dark Green to me,.......almost blending into each other. Som may even have been Olive Drab/ Neutral Grey? There is a pic I've seen of a UK based one (complete with yellow outlined serials) that looks TSS, I'll see if I can find it - it would certainly fit Admiralty Orders for land based aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) Here's the classic SEAC Beech shot, juts for comparison AMERICAN AIRCRAFT IN ROYAL AIR FORCE SERVICE, 1939-1945: BEECH MODEL 18 EXPEDITER.. © IWM (CI 1149)IWM Non Commercial Licence Comparing with the Harvard in the background, I'd say Temperate Land Scheme with yellow undersides And here's an RN one on Malta http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1403065/ Edited February 23, 2015 by Dave Fleming 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehnz Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 It wouldn't be hard to imagine the RN one in TSS to my eye. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 When I was doing model of my York I dig out a lot of data and from this time I pretty sure, that all early Yorks were (with two exceptions: DG/DE of personal Sir W.Churchill's machine "Ascalon" and ivory of Lord Mountbatten's one) in EGSG/DSG/Azure. There is a plenty of colour photos in Net, for example beautiful photo here: http://www.aer.ita.br/~bmattos/mundo/airliner/york_dir.htm and in someone memoires I found phrase "a group of gray Yorks standing..." I am also convience about Buckigham C Mk 1 - the transport ones (or at least many of them) were in the same colours http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/bww2/buckingham/buckingham-4.jpg Similar Buckmasters, I think (I was not studying this subject). But today I found something perhaps more interesting - for me this BOAC Lancaster: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ww2images/6901943091/in/photostream/ looks like in TSS from top and perhaps Night bottom. Cheers Jerzy-Wojtek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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