Roundel Red 1937-45

[AnonymousAA72]

Nice try, Bill, but the stores reference for Sea Grey was 157, and, for Sea Grey Medium was 157, as well. Back to the drawing board

Edgar

Ah well...but there again..........in M.J Bowyers "Fighting Colours" he does mention seeing different "Greys" used on codes - albeit at the beginning of the war. I don't have the book with me, but he does state that Duxford used a "blue" shade to Kenley's "darker shade" - or something like that....but I digress...........

Edited May 21, 2010 by Bill Clark

[Mike Starmer]

This is somewhat late but I may be able to explain the colours on the posted illustrations of three red cards. I do not sure about the bright red although it looks to me to be Post Office Red No.38 from the 1930 BS 381C; Colours For Ready Mixed Paints which was the pre-war government standard for colours. The cards marked 11a and 11b 'red' & 'pink' respectively are the colours from BS 987C: 1942 Camouflage Colours. War Emergency. The proportions of the cards match those in the booklet and I suspect that they may have been removed from there. The colours in this booklet were intended for the purpose of camouflaging buildings, factories and military installations and some vehicles. Originally of 11 colours in 1942 then later increased to 14 by 1945. The RAF dull red shade is in BS 381C. as TerraCotta No.44 and matched by Shade 11a in BS 987C: The above booklets are now well out of print.

[fredjocko]

Hi:

Let me ask a question then if I may? To make dull red would I use insignia red and mix with black or brown and what would the ratio be? Along the same lines using insignia blue and black and what would the ratios be?

I live across the pond and I don't want to wait to WEM's paints. :-)

Thanx,

Cral

[AnonymousAA72]

This is somewhat late but I may be able to explain the colours on the posted illustrations of three red cards. I do not sure about the bright red although it looks to me to be Post Office Red No.38 from the 1930 BS 381C; Colours For Ready Mixed Paints which was the pre-war government standard for colours. The cards marked 11a and 11b 'red' & 'pink' respectively are the colours from BS 987C: 1942 Camouflage Colours. War Emergency. The proportions of the cards match those in the booklet and I suspect that they may have been removed from there. The colours in this booklet were intended for the purpose of camouflaging buildings, factories and military installations and some vehicles. Originally of 11 colours in 1942 then later increased to 14 by 1945. The RAF dull red shade is in BS 381C. as TerraCotta No.44 and matched by Shade 11a in BS 987C: The above booklets are now well out of print.

Thanks for that input Mike....I'm interested in this line........."The colours in this booklet were intended for the purpose of camouflaging buildings, factories and military installations and some vehicles." No mention of aircraft?

[AnonymousAA72]

Hi:

Let me ask a question then if I may? To make dull red would I use insignia red and mix with black or brown and what would the ratio be? Along the same lines using insignia blue and black and what would the ratios be?

I live across the pond and I don't want to wait to WEM's paints. :-)

Thanx,

Cral

I've neve had to mix them so I don't know for sure....I would though use a brown shade to dull the red - you should be aiming at a "Terracotta" shade of red.

As for thelue, I would think that black would make the blue greyer maybe?

I think you may have to experiment on these and report back!!!

[thx6667]

Ok, here's one for the pot... page 54 of Hampden Squadrons in Focus, there's an aerial shot of three 106 Sqn aircraft, all in the same camo scheme except one appears not to have any upper surface B roundels - until you pop a magnifier on it and you can see it does but they are much paler than the other aircraft, though all three appears to have reasonably fresh camouflage colours.

Given that the yellow appears to be pale on the fuselage we can rule out Orthochromatic film, so a case of one aircraft being painted in different shades of red/blue, or the same but just more weathered?

[John]

There's an on-line BS987 card here:

http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww227/j...S-987C-1942.jpg

I've never seen an original so I can't comment on its accuracy, but read in conjunction with Mike Starmer's MAFVA article it should at least point us in the right direction:

http://www.mafva.net/other%20pages/Starmer%20camo.htm

I don't think any of these colours were specified for aviation use, at least not with the BS987 nomenclature.

John

[Mike Starmer]

Thanks for that input Mike....I'm interested in this line........."The colours in this booklet were intended for the purpose of camouflaging buildings, factories and military installations and some vehicles." No mention of aircraft?

The colours in BS 987C were for the above purposes. They were produced as Enamel for metal amd wood, Bituminious Emulsion for canvas, exterior brick, cement and metal surfaces and Woolgrease Emulsion type for exterior surfaces brick, glass and asbestos surfaces. The enamel type could also be manufactureed as petrol resistant or stoving i.e. heat resisting, for gun barrels and searchlights.

Aircraft colours were a completely different set under MAP regulations. Dull red is not a red of different hue, it refers to a matt surface finish as opposed to gloss surface finish. The hue matched BS 44 TerraCotta of BS 381C 1930 edition.