Roundel Red 1937-45

[AnonymousAA72]

Following some lively debate on here regarding the colours used on British roundels throughout WW2, I did a bit more digging and came across this from an Ian Huntley column in SAM Vol 3 Number 8 May 1981...

I've copied more or less verbatim - but have left out some earlier paragraph's for clarity and to attempt to condense Mr Huntley's article.

"The British Roundel 1937-45....Wartime British identification colours still appear to give modellers a lot of problems, and the matter continues to come up for discussion. 'Were bright inter-war colours used for roundels up to 1942, and then did they change to the new dull hues?' is a question I have been asked recently and one which requires more than a letter to an individual reader to answer. This subject is a large and complex one so this month I will attempt to enlargeon the reasons for change and the backgrouns history of British Roundels.

1935 and War Camouflage ...Camouflage trials began early 1935, carrying where "Salamander" trials of 1918 had left off. By 11 September 1935 the work was finalised and scheme specifications were ready for isse to the service and contractors alike. New colour standards were issued, and production paint contracts began to be put out to paint manufacturers. After that time many old specifications were withdrawn or cancelled, and changes were introduced for squadron identity markings. National markings were to be of a colour that would make them recognisable at short range. For this purpose a number of new , and secret prototype aircraft were borrowed by the ministry and flown with varying styles and colours for national and unit markings, during the summer of 1936.

Confirmation was given that the standard Red, White and Blue (BRIGHT COLOURS) roundel in proportion to the radii of 1:3:5 was far too bright, even without the white ring (following the form of 1916-18). The same colours were applied in the Rd and Blue night form of radii 2:5 and were found to be still too bright in spite of matt paints being used, The same roundel style was then trialled in the standard night (dull) Red and Blue, and was found to be satisfactory........

To be continued!!!

Edited May 20, 2010 by Bill Clark

[AnonymousAA72]

Part Two.... Its a bit long-winded but bear with me - it is worth it!!

"......White unit characters (both letters and numerals, and a mixture of both) were tried and found to be too bright again. They were dulled to a grey, and after using one or two other colours. a light grey (later Medium Sea Grey) was accepted.

These brief trials established the wartime scheme of Type 'B' roundels, with Medium Sea Grey unit code characters, as a basic standard to be applied over an upper surface, two colour camouflage of Dark Green and Dark Earth. The roundel colours were both of the dull night shade of Red and Blue.

At this juncture considerable time and effort was put into designing various features which could be instantly removed, or converted, from peace to wartime conditions. The Red, White and Blue roundel was selected for the peacetime mark of identity, but in order to make an easy change and without complicating the supply situation, the roundel was tried out using the dull night colours. On its own, and even with a thin white outline, it did not look right on the camouflaged finish. When yellow was tried it looked better, and after several reproportioned styles had been looked at, it was decided that an outer band to the same thickness of the Blue be applied in Yellow.

Details for Contractors

In a letter from the Royal Aircraft Establishment, contractors were given brief details of the modified camouflage schemes to be applied to new airframes under the expansion programme contracts. Further, more specific, details were forwarded dealing with prototype aircraft flying during the summer of 1936. These explained the careful positioning of the fuselage roundels, needed to provide space for special letters or numerals for unit identification. They were to be Servicw applied, but the works had ensure there was room for them on the fuselage.

Reference was also made to the cancellation of the inter-war identification colours and that the reference 'night' no longer applied as all new identification colours of both night and day were to the previous dull night colour standard and were matt finished as were the new camouflage colours.

Contractors were asked to apply the new Red, White, Blue and Yellow roundels in the appropriate positions , until the outbreak of hostilities or other crisis took place, whereby they were asked to apply the Red and Blue roundel upon instruction from the Resident Technical Officer.

Colour standards, originally to spec D103, such as Night Red VNR5; White VW3, and Night Blue NVB6, were given new titles and stores references. They were identical colours, but with a different reference number for each type of finish. The most common were those for DTD 83A, including Red 33B/73; White 33B/75 and Blue 33b/69. Yellow, originally a separate entity was 33B/77."

To be continued.........

[AnonymousAA72]

Part Three.......

Hang on in there....a bit more

"DTD 83A

The Stores reference DTD 83A was a cellulose finish for fabric, and having been introduced in December 1935, it became a material reference that was to last for the whole of the war. Throughout that period, there was no change in the ingedients or colour standard and the same Stores Reference numbers covered the entire range of colours. This meant that camouflage drawing calling up such references for identification markings at any time during the war would have had the same colour standard. Had there been another Red to another colour standard in DTD 83A, then it would have had another Stores ref., number. But examinations of paint lists for expansion scheme aircraft and subsequent production, does not show any other identification colour apart from those already given.

The original 'bright' colours continued to be used on other contracts, or on machines that did not have a specification calling for the new 'dull' colours. But after the Munich crisis of 1938, when all first-line aircraft changed to the Type 'B' Red and Blue roundel, it was some while before all aircraft of a lesser operational status actually made the change from 'bright' Type 'A' to a dull Type 'B' roundel.

It was also noticeable that many aircraft of the Fleet Air Arm, originally in Aluminium finish and with 'bright' idents, took some time not only to adopt camouflage, but also to make the conversion to 'dull' idents.

It was therefore possible to see camouflaged aircraft with both 'dull' and 'bright' identification marking, but generally the more recent the production form and the more important it was in the expansion programme, then the more likely they were to be in the standard 'dull' colours."

Part Four - Final to follow, with an explanation of where and why we have this confusion....maybe!!!!

[AnonymousAA72]

Part IV of Ian Huntley's article........

"Ministry Muddles with Nomenclature

Many of the problems created in camouflage and paint schemes are brought about by confusing statements in directives, which could for example talk about Red and Dull Red on the same piece of paper, leading the reader to suppose there were two different reds. However, whatever the wording, the final answer always lay in the accompanying [below] list of Stores Reference numbers. If only one Red was listed there then it was the Red.

In March 1942, the Ministry started making reference to 'new smooth Type S' materials, and by poor wording caused confusion over Sky (see SAM Vol 1, No 1 'The Truth about Sky'), and in terms of revised form of roundel (Type 'C' and 'C1'), a further muddle came about , because of a reference to 'a new dull red colour'. This sounded like a new red, but in fact they were trying to tell the readers that all the existing identification colours were to be produced in the 'new. smooth, Type 'S' material'.

This 'dull red' was only 'new' because of its smooth finish as opposed to the previous matt finish. The colour standard was exactly the same. Yet the letter explaining the change to the new roundel, referred to 'Red' for the ident. colour, and 'Dull Red' for code letters. This caused considerable head sratching until the 'List of Finishes and Identification Colours' was consulted, where only one red appeared. Cross reference to the Colour Standards and to other Stores Reference numbers listed alongside [below] the Red showed that it was none other than 'Identification Red, dull'."

Ian Huntley's summary to follow.....

[TonyT]

I keep meaning to get a few samples of genuine silver primer and cockpit green as i can lay my hands on some mixed to the original spec, putting it on the web accurately has been a concern but I think I have a solution................... Dulux do a shade colour paint cards that you get free, if I post a photo of a say genuine sample of cockpit green next to a dulux sample card, then adjusting your monitor to match a sample card at your end would then give you the true shade:)

[AnonymousAA72]

I keep meaning to get a few samples of genuine silver primer and cockpit green as i can lay my hands on some mixed to the original spec, putting it on the web accurately has been a concern but I think I have a solution................... Dulux do a shade colour paint cards that you get free, if I post a photo of a say genuine sample of cockpit green next to a dulux sample card, then adjusting your monitor to match a sample card at your end would then give you the true shade:)

Should this be in Daz's Spitfire thread Tony?

[AnonymousAA72]

Right , Ian Huntley's summary.....

"Camouflaged aircraft, with Type 'B' identification markings in dull colours were designed for hostilities as early as the end of 1935. Such colours appear to have , been put into production during 1936, and the Stores Reference numbers applicable to any given colour did not change during the duration of the war. Reference to the various issues of Fairey Swordfish camouflage drawings, from July 1939 to July 1944 for the cellulose finish DTD83A, shows no change in nomenclature. Had any change of hue for a material in DTD 83A occured, such as a 'bright red' being replaced by a 'dull red', then as a separate product, the new medium would have been given another Stores Reference number. The change in hue too, would have meant a new shade card being issued, but in the case of Ident. Red and Blue (dull), the same cards appeared in 1944 as appeared in 1935, 1937, 1940, 1942 ans 1943.

I hope this explains a situation which has due to the passage of time and confusion amongst authors who wrongly translated the letters giving authority for colour series and markings in the same way as their wartime predecessors, led to many false statements and the existence of colours which were total myths."

BRITISH IDENTIFICATION COLOURS 1937-1945

MAP COLOUR FS595A REF Methuen Ref

Red (Dull) 30109 8D7

White 37778 -

Blue (Dull) 35044 20F5

Yellow 33538 (4-5)A8

Note: All colours were from March 1942, also produced in Type 'S' smooth finish."

END!!!

So there you have it. Personally I think that it answers the vast majority of queries raised on this subject. There's still a few grey areas (no pun intended!), but it explains how and why maybe Glosters used Bright colours in their markings. It also explains why some authors referred to "new" colours in 1942!

Its interesting to note that this was thirty years ago - and yet we are still looking for answers! I'll have a dig through some more Ian Huntley columns to see if there are any clues as to interior colours on Spitfires, and on exterior "Mixed" Grey- I seem to recall that they are!!

Any comments? And its not a matter of getting one over on anyone. Its not a matter of proving someone wrong. Many of us are always looking for answers, research is part of the overall fun of this hobby and and I'm glad that I've maybe helped unearth a few unanswered or forgotten questions, and helped the understanding on a puzzling subject. One thats been puzzling us for at least the last three decades!!

I suspect it could be a matter of faith! Are Ian Huntley's findings accurate? I recall that he worked for Fairey's and had access to official records and drawings - is that enough?.

Edgar, I'd certainly welcome your observations......

[Super Aereo]

Thank you Bill, as you said there are still many grey areas (differences between the Dull Red in the squadron codes and the roundel red on many photos of Bomber Command aircraft, for example) but at least it would substantiate the admittedly not numerous but significant evidence of the existence of Dull Red in RAF markings before 1942.

[Edgar]

This has, unfortunately, arisen before my investigations are complete (if, indeed, they ever can be.) According to Ian's article, the signal below (plus others, at the same time, all involving very senior RAF officers, and using exactly the same wording,) assuming that roundels were already in dull colours, should really have read that the plan was to replace dull red with dull red, and dull blue with dull blue, which, to my mind, would hardly have the effect of "toning down" the roundel.

Incidentally, 4 Group had said that they'd already taken it upon themselves to repaint their roundels to the above spec., for which they got a mild knuckle-rapping, but were told to carry on, and see how things went.

The colour samples, below, are from the box in the RAF Museum library; obviously, I can't tell how they will appear on others' monitors, but the large matt red one, on the left, is undated, and labelled 11a on the back. The sample, top right (which I believe to be dull red,) is dated on the back, July 1942, and also has 11a on the back. The bottom right sample remains a mystery, and is labelled 11b; I thought it was P.R.U. Pink, but I now know that is not the case. So, now you have the conundrum; did the dull red 11a come first, as Ian & Paul say, with the brighter matt red following, in which case the questions are when and why? Or is the above letter the clue that the bright 11a came first, and, at some time in 1942, it became the dull red 11a, and, because its use was only to be codes, and (later, perhaps) roundels, the same number was used, throwing the modelling world into utter confusion 60 years later?

Well, there you are; on one side, you have Bruce Robertson, Dick Ward (after he'd produced his Modeldecal range,) James Goulding, the RAF Museum's Mr.Bruce, sundry senior RAF officers and RAE professors; on the other you have Ian Huntley and Paul Lucas. I'm off, back to my researches.

Edgar

Edited May 18, 2010 by Edgar

[Super Aereo]

This topic is becoming more and more interesting: while I have reason to believe that dull Red was introduced well before 1942 in RAF markings, I am also fully aware of the differences in tone I mentioned before between reds in squadron markings and roundels on Bomber Command aircraft....

Surely Michael J F Bowyer was not daydreaming when he wrote that Dull Red only became common in 1942, yet Ian Huntley obviously must have known what he was talking about.

My purely personal impression is that, while the brick-hued Dull Red must have existed and been in use since at least 1940, most aircraft manufacturers might still have used brighter variants of the colour well into the mid-war period, whether to use up existing stocks of paint or because of the limited availability of the duller hue I cannot say at present.

In any case this discussion is very stimulating and long overdue.

Kudos to you all.

[Glenn R]

I was interested to see Edgar's post which included a 'yellowish' paint chip from the RAF museum.

Could this be the colour used for the squadron codes shown in the photo on page 45 of Roger Freeman's 'The RAF of WWII in Colour' book?

Am I opening another can of worms??

Regards,

Glenn.

Edited May 19, 2010 by Glenn R

[Andrew Jones]

Reading the above posts carefully, it becomes apparent to me that the terms used suggest that the dull red and dull blue referred to for night flying aircraft are nothing more than MATT versions of the standard ident colours. The "brick" red colour used from the war years is probably a different shade of red, but the earlier "dull red" refered to by Ian Huntley is simply the matt colour used pre-war on Nivo finished bombers.

[AnonymousAA72]

Many thanks for that Edgar...its certainly thrown up some more questions - as I suspected!! All good stuff!!

[Super Aereo]

Reading the above posts carefully, it becomes apparent to me that the terms used suggest that the dull red and dull blue referred to for night flying aircraft are nothing more than MATT versions of the standard ident colours. The "brick" red colour used from the war years is probably a different shade of red, but the earlier "dull red" refered to by Ian Huntley is simply the matt colour used pre-war on Nivo finished bombers.

Except for the fact that the matt colour used on NIVO finished bombers was described as "terra cotta" by Bruce Robertson...

[AnonymousAA72]

Except for the fact that the matt colour used on NIVO finished bombers was described as "terra cotta" by Bruce Robertson...

Yes, I'd seen references to that.....I suspect a lot of this is down to the different commands using different nomencular.....at different periods of time. Edgar's reproduction of the letter is from Bomber Command - this could be a telling factor. I'm going to sit down later and read through all of this again..I suspect there will be a lot more questions before we get any conclusive answers!

[Edgar]

There are, normally, plenty of seats available in the reading room, at Kew, should anyone fancy helping out.

Edgar

[AnonymousAA72]

There are, normally, plenty of seats available in the reading room, at Kew, should anyone fancy helping out.

Edgar

I doubt whether I'd get there and back in my lunch-break Edgar!!

[AnonymousAA72]

Well, there you are; on one side, you have Bruce Robertson, Dick Ward (after he'd produced his Modeldecal range,) James Goulding, the RAF Museum's Mr.Bruce, sundry senior RAF officers and RAE professors; on the other you have Ian Huntley and Paul Lucas. I'm off, back to my researches.

Edgar

Though of course this has been explained away by Ian Huntley in his article..." I hope this explains a situation which has due to the passage of time and confusion amongst authors who wrongly translated the letters giving authority for colour series and markings in the same way as their wartime predecessors, led to many false statements and the existence of colours which were total myths."

With regards to Dick Ward, actually NOT after he'd produced his Modeldecal range. The drawings that you refer to - in the Spitfire book - were dated 1986. Eric Morgan and Edward Shacklady acknowledge him for producing the end papers and coloured profiles.....

......YET Modeldecal sheet 107 (Pre-War roundels 1918-1937) dated and issued in 1990 (4 years later) state the following......."There has been some confusion regarding the colours of post war roundels and fin flashing on aircraft of the 1938-1942 period; as already mentioned [in earlier Modeldecal sheets I assume?] the pre-war roundel design was the same as the later type "A", and some have assumed that these later roundels were painted in the original bright colours. This is not so, for the dull colours were also introduced for national markings at the same time as the new ranges of matt camouflage paints were specified for all new aircraft coming off the production line from 1 April 1937.

Types already in service were camouflaged as soon as convenient, and their roundel styles and colours amended accordingly, the Munich crisis of 1938 adding impetus, and also leading to many anomalies. Although there were undoubtedly aircraft with national markings in the bright colours at the start of the war, they were certainly not the norm, and some care needs to be exercised if using this set of decals for subjects after the 1937-8 period."

This of course ties in nicely with Ian Huntley's accounts, and may be related - I don't know.

Interestingly Modeldecal also issued a sheet for Dull Red Codes (114)...."During the war, markings on British aircraft were goverened by the issue of numerous command signals........The use of Dull Red codes and serials was confirmed in by AMO A.664/42, issued on 2 July 1942, but the application of serial numbers in this colour came into widespread use in the winter of 1940/41, especially on the overall night-finished Hurricanes and Defiants pressed into night fighters. Initially many of the night fighters retained their codes in Medium Sea Grey, together with national markings (Type A and A1 roundels and corresponding fin flashes) which retained large areas of white and yellow. A signal issued on 5 January 1941 to various commands and to aircraft manufacturers stated that identification letters were to be painted in Dull Red; the manufacturers naturally took this to mean serial numbers, since codes were not their responsibility. At squadron level, this was often interpreted to mean codes and serials; by this time night flying crew were getting decidedly "twitchy" about the brightness of markings generally, and there were many examples of toning down of codes, serials and national markings to squadron requirements. On 9 July 1941 Signal Ref. S.7312 was issued to commands regarding the toning down of roundels and fin flashes and the use of Dull Red for codes etc., thus confirming what as already widespread practice for codes and serials."

This of course ties in nicely with the your post above Edgar!

Its clear that Dull Red WAS in use, "Terra Cotta" had and was used on NIVO finished interwar bombers, and in 1937 onwards according to the research by Ian Huntley, Richard Ward, Paul Lucas and others - including it would seem from reading their accounts - the sundry RAF officers and RAE professors they mention! None deny that that Bright Red was also in use.....I'm not aware of Bruce Robertson, James Gouding and Mr Bruce's accounts, do they state that Dull Red didn't exist at that time? It would be nice to know what they actually say.

EDIT: Actually Super Aero may have partially answered this for us..."Except for the fact that the matt colour used on NIVO finished bombers was described as "terra cotta" by Bruce Robertson..."

Additionally......in Scale Aircraft Modelling Volume 1 Number 12 September 1979 - The Battle of Britain Special edition - it has an article by Ian Huntley (of course!!) . The article refers to "Ident Red. Dull" for its national markings - to be expected given the reprodcution above but ALSO (and naturally for SAM then ....) Mike Keep provided the artwork for the profiles. The colour key to Mike's art-work quotes "Terra-Cotta (Red)".

Edited May 19, 2010 by Bill Clark

[Edgar]

In "Aircraft Camouflage and Markings 1907-1954," Robertson supplies a chart of the "ROYAL AIR FORCE IDENTITY MARKINGS 1915-1954," which include his now (in) famous A, B, C, D designations. Interestingly (and even more controversial) he only lists "Red, blue (Matt)" for the upper-wing roundels from 1923-1947, with no mention of "dull," at all.

For the C (under wing) roundel, with the narrow white and yellow rings, he says they were "Red, white, blue, (dull)" from 1942 -1947; for the C1 fuselage roundel, he states "Red, white, blue, yellow, (dull), again from 1942-1947. He also states that, for 1947 only, the new 1/3 red, 2/3 white, and blue roundels remained dull, only becoming bright in 1948.

Bruce, in the RAF Museum's book, shows the Matt Red and Matt Blue, with the dull colours just listed as "Red" and "Blue," and says "Matt Red and Matt blue (which were used both prior to 1942 and after the war)". It was at the museum that I found that Matt Red was given the numbers 11 & 11A, and Matt Blue was 12 & 12A; although I found "the other" 11A, for dull red, I didn't find dull blue.

Goulding might have taken his lead from Robertson, since he talks of the C (etc.) roundels, but says that the new markings were introduced in May, 1942 "and the Spitfire drawings were amended on 21-5-1942," but they weren't (at least I can't find any mention of it,) but they were amended, under mod 622, on 14-7-42 (the mod read "To amend camouflage drawing to agree with amendment 3 of D.T.D. tech. circ. no 144" and, no, so far I haven't found it.)

A.M.O. A.664/42 is another oddity; as early as paragraph 5.(ii) it states "Matt finish paints are to be used for the national markings and dull red code letters," and, throughout the rest, roundels are just referred to as red, white and blue, while code letters and serials (where applicable) are referred to as "dull red." The differentiation seems a little odd (well, to an unbeliever like me, anyway.) We're left with the intriguing possibility that the July Spitfire mod was the change to dull colours in the roundel; at the moment I can't find to what it did refer, since the change to smooth D.T.D.517 paints was on 25-9-42, and covered under a separate mod (697.)

1-9-41, during a meeting at Farnborough, G/C Odbert (D.D.O.R.2) "considered that the roundels and flashes on day bombers should be matte." Dr. Ramsbottom (R.A.E.) said that "at present the roundels on day flying a/c were made as glossy as possible," and W/C Pearson (H.Q.F.C.) added that "day fighters must be identifiable with ease."

30-12-41 the Air Commodore D.O.R. wrote to H.Q. Bomber Command, proposing the new sizes for roundels, and said "The reflection obtained from these markings at night in searchlight beams is reduced to a minimum by the use of matt finish dopes which have been introduced in the required colours."

None of the above seems consistent with dull colours being in use from before the start of the war.

The letter below, is a continuation of the Bomber Command changes, and is the RAF informing the Air Ministry what's going on, still using the same wording.

Please note that, so far, all of the paperwork, that I've discovered, has been for bombers and nightfighters; I have yet to find anything definitive on daytime markings.

Note, too, that "identification markings" appears to refer to roundels, not codes or serials.

Edgar

Edited May 19, 2010 by Edgar

[Super Aereo]

I'm inclined to think that at least part of the confusion might arise by the adjective "dull" being used as an antonym for both "bright" and "glossy".

The way I see it, what is surprising for me is not so much the terra cotta Dull Red being used before 1942, but the bright "letterbox" red being still used on a large scale after 1937-38.

I even wonder if our postwar confusion might not in fact mirror a similiarly confused situation between MAP and some paint manufacturers during wartime, after all even the term "smooth" can range from dull satin matt to quite glossy...

[Edgar]

Not quite, since the authorities called smooth paints "Matt paints, with a smooth finish," which is a real "gotcha," when you first read it. One Seafire drawing, late-to-post war, takes great pains in telling the painter not to aim for a glossy finish, because glossy isn't any faster than smooth.

Robertson only uses the word "bright" for roundels on silver, and light-coloured, a/c until 1942, and on drab surfaces until 1937. "Matt" comes into general use until 1942, with "dull" until 1947, reverting to "bright" thereafter. However hard I try, I keep coming back to the same question; why did 4 Group say that they were repainting their roundels in dull colours, receiving a mild rebuke for doing so, if they were already using dull paints?

In Kew, there are 427 files on Fighter Command, at least 54 on Identification and recognition, 24 on the D.T.D., plus sundry others on Paint and/or camouflage, and, with a maximum of 21 allowed out each day, it could take some time. Any chance of an extended dinner-hour, on Saturdays, Bill?

Edgar

[AnonymousAA72]

In Kew, there are 427 files on Fighter Command, at least 54 on Identification and recognition, 24 on the D.T.D., plus sundry others on Paint and/or camouflage, and, with a maximum of 21 allowed out each day, it could take some time. Any chance of an extended dinner-hour, on Saturdays, Bill?

Edgar

Dunno if an extended dinner-hour would be enough Edgar!! I'll see if I can get a couple of days off work! I love seeing copies of these letters - its real history, and its just as tangible as any piece of metal or fabric!!

Edited May 20, 2010 by Bill Clark

[Super Aereo]

They are open on Saturdays, IIRC.

I don't live too far from Kew...

[AnonymousAA72]

I'm inclined to think that at least part of the confusion might arise by the adjective "dull" being used as an antonym for both "bright" and "glossy".

The way I see it, what is surprising for me is not so much the terra cotta Dull Red being used before 1942, but the bright "letterbox" red being still used on a large scale after 1937-38.

I even wonder if our postwar confusion might not in fact mirror a similiarly confused situation between MAP and some paint manufacturers during wartime, after all even the term "smooth" can range from dull satin matt to quite glossy...

I'd never really contemplated the relevance in the differences in the reflectivity of the markings until now - though I still think that this may be a Terra Cotta Herring .........sorry about that!!!!

Anyway my thinking currently is similar to yours in that that we are considering two-ish separate shades only. For want of better terms a Terra Cotta shade for "Dull" (in all forms) and "PO Red" for "Bright" regardless of what they were called at that time. Now ignoring details like how glossy or matt the markings were - which could be a mistake , we know from Edgars posts that "Dull" was certainly used in 1942 and after. Its fairly certain that "Bright" was also in use before this. Various sources state that "Dull" came into use from 1936, but it was a standard colour used on Nivo painted bombers before this. If thats so , why do we have references from Bomber Command telling units to paint makings in Dull in '42?

All of this can be maybe explained away by the mixing up of terminology....

Ian Huntley and Dick Ward state that letters were sent informing units and manufacturers that Dull Red should be used from 1938, and both state that Bright was used up until 1940 at least. Yet Bomber command's letters are at odds with this.......unless all this was doing is confirming the NEW roundel types .."C", "C1" - as suggested by Ian Huntley.....

Interesting also that both Bomber Command Letters refer to "Sea Grey" to tone down "White".....

Thinks........ Seven Parts SEA GREY and one Part NIGHT is going to be darker than Seven parts SEA GREY MEDIUM and one Part NIGHT......but thats another thread!!!!

Edited May 21, 2010 by Bill Clark

[Edgar]

Nice try, Bill, but the stores reference for Sea Grey was 157, and, for Sea Grey Medium was 157, as well. Back to the drawing board

Edgar