Japanese Earth and Grass

[Nick Millman]

Just a quick observation that may be of interest to Japanese armour enthusiasts.

The colour description "Tutikusa iro" which I have encountered in a few places recently is the Kunreishiki romanisation of characters which in the Hepburn system would be "Tsuchikusa iro".

"Tsuchi" is earth or clay and "kusa" is grass so Tutikusa iro or Tsuchikusa iro (one and the same) appears to mean "earth grass colour". This is said to be "khaki" by one source. The precise appearance of this colour and how it relates to karekusa iro (parched or dried grass colour) and/or "Japanese artillery brown" (which may be khaki) - or not - are interesting questions and somewhat mysterious - as you tend to get different answers from different sources. JAAF # 33 "khaki iro" is a distinct yellowish brown colour, but different to JAAF # 30 Karekusa iro which is a slightly greenish "sand" or light olive. The GSI Mr Color paint TC18 Army Khaki is like the former but is not really like the "khaki (drab)" of the British Army - that is more like Karekusa iro - whilst perhaps unsurprisingly TC14 Karekusa iro is also more like the latter. Confused yet? I am too but I'm persevering. Our expectations/perceptions may be the complete opposite - that khaki should be a greenish sand or light olive and parched (dried) grass should be a sandy, yellowish colour - but that seems not to be the case .

I would have blogged this but I always feel a bit guilty putting tank stuff on my aviation blog.

Nick

[daz greenwood]

Hi Nick thanx for that valuable information.

[pigsty]

I've got a tin of "parched grass" from Phoenix Precision paints. Is that meant to be a Japanese Army colour, then? I ask because I thought it was a decent match for the base colour of (of all things) a Danish Leopard 2!

Edited May 15, 2010 by pigsty

[Nick Millman]

I've got a tin of "parched grass" from Phoenix Precision paints. Is that meant to be a Japanese Army colour, then? I ask because I thought it was a decent match for the base colour of (of all things) a Danish Leopard 2!

Dunno I'm afraid. Don't know much about Phoenix paints but didn't think they made any Japanese colours. While you're on what are they like btw?

Nick

[pigsty]

Fairly good. I brush-paint exclusively and have found that it takes at least two coats to get a solid finish, but it's a good finish.

[John @ WEM]

Hey Nick--if you ever manage a Munsell match to those Japanese colours, please let me know!

[Test Graham]

I'm currently in a blitz on Japanese AFVs, so some clarity on the matter would help, though I suspect it will be too late for the first spasm. I've considered Humbrol 86 for "light olive", 80 for the latter willow green and 83 for the ochre. Now stop laughing and offer better ideas.......

At the risk of changing the subject. A local shop is closing down, and in their paint rack I also found two different colour 95s. One is a pale green looking rather like a slightly greenish Sky or a washed-out Eau de Nil. Do you know the history of this one?

[Test Graham]

In attempting to get a reasonably consistent picture from several sources, I am working on the following assumptions.

Yellow. Applied as an irregular cross. The significance being that it must have a decent contrast with the lightest colour, which is:

Pale tan. Or sand. Or Ochre. (Or light olive?). Or parched grass. Ochre seems unlikely because it would be too close to the yellow. A US restoration is criticised for being too strongly yellow, but the Soviet example in Poklonnaya Gora is similar . This colour is more washed out on later schemes? A more washed-out colour appears on the Kubinka examples, but the colours on these do look a bit too similar to recent Soviet colours for me to be confident. None of the representations however appear to be pale green/olive in any shade.

Mid Brown. Or Japanese artillery brown. Or Khaki (British uniform hue). Could this also be Ochre?

Mid Green. Or light olive? Or khaki (but not British)? Later a brighter willow green, specifically for operations in the southern region (against the Western Allies). Also seen as an overall colour, especially on Navy tanks - or is this yet another green?

Dark Brown. Mahogany - about which there does seem to be strong measure of agreement. Sometimes does appear as a lighter. more reddish, colour, perhaps on later schemes?

There is a reference to later colours appearing more washed out/less intense.

I can see where some of these colours tie in with Nick/AJPress/Zaloga terminology, and those I transliterate from the katakana in the Ho Ni kit. The English descriptions in the three Fujimi kits are contradictory - for example wood-brown is used for the mid brown (Type 97) and the mahogany (Shinhoto and Ho Ni). The lightest colour is described as middle stone (khaki) and the base colour - elsewhere it is the mid brown that is describes as the base, which seems more likely to me. The British Middle Stone also appears too yellow to be this pale colour. The green is khaki-green on two kits - I presume this means olive rather than the brighter willow green.

The Shinhoto instructions do quote Model Colour numbers 21, 43, 23 and 42, but these mean nothing to me. Are you familiar with them, Nick? Or IJN Green Gaigen No.21?

[andym]

So any advice on how accurate the following are?

http://store.spruebrothers.com/gunze-mr-co...603-p16390.aspx

http://store.spruebrothers.com/gunze-mr-co...604-p16391.aspx

Thanks,

Andy

[Test Graham]

No idea. Looking at them, and the subjects that are illustrated, I'd hazard a guess that one set is early and the other late, but that's a pretty hazardous guess. If they weren't so expensive I'd think of buying them. I have dealt with HobbyLink Japan, but they don't seem to do paints.

However, as neither the US nor Japan will post them, it's a bit academic.

Edited May 25, 2010 by Graham Boak

[Nick Millman]

Yes, the two sets represent the "early" and "late" schemes.

I recently brushed out test swatches of the colours to have a closer look at them. In the "early" set I venture that the base Khaki is a little too dark and not quite yellow enough - this colour faded to a much lighter colour, to something even approaching FS 20260. This is a difficult colour to match. I haven't tried it but I suspect adding a little Humbrol 186 Matt Brown to 225 Middle Stone may get into the ball park. The green started bright as in the set and was often described as "light green" but UV exposure made it go reddish so it ended up looking more olive in hue. Humbrol are never quite strong enough for Japanese greens but Revell's semi-gloss 363 Dunkelgrün doesn't look bad. The brown in the set looks good and a measure of this elusive "tea colour" is that I cannot quite match it in any other standard or paint range! Closest so far is Humbrol 186 Matt Brown.

I have seen comments elsewhere that the Karekusa base colour in the "late" set is too dark and too green but I think that is because some people are expecting it should be more of a "light sand" in hue. This goes back to the perceptions of "khaki" and "dried grass" I mentioned in the earlier post. It looks ok to me, again maybe a bit dark and perhaps not quite yellow enough. This colour appears similar in character to the German dark yellow - a sort of greenish ochre. Revell 86 Khaki is not bad - maybe not quite green enough - or you could try adding a little Humbrol 86 Matt Olive to 225 Middle Stone.

It seems the various artistic depictions of these tanks may have confused and conflated the Khaki and Karekusa base colours into being the same "light sand". Having a quick look at images of models on the net it seems most of these do too.

As well as the yellow "cruciform" added to the early camouflage, the later camouflage sometimes had two additional colours added in the form of a yellowish ochre or sand and/or a rather bright light green - perhaps to create more contrast in what was essentially a low contrast scheme.

Nick

Edited May 25, 2010 by Nick Millman

[TonyT]

?

http://www.j-aircraft.com/misc/PAINT.HTM

[Nick Millman]

?

http://www.j-aircraft.com/misc/PAINT.HTM

Hmm. Perhaps I won't bother posting anything more on this topic. Clearly a list of old hobby paints is of much more interest and use than the fruits of my recent research.

[Test Graham]

Internet threads are always prone to enthusiastic visitors dropping in briefly but glad to offer their fragments of data. Sometimes these are true gems that illuminate the discussion and sometimes they are familiar, tangential, or just plain unhelpful. That's the nature of the beast. Open discussions have their good points and bad ones. We wouldn't get far exploring any subject if every digression resulted in total closure, nor if every offer of help, however misguided, was just superciliously dismissed. There's much more yet to be said on this subject. Nick, you have expertise that others lack, and obviously much to offer, but by no means is every misplaced comment a direct attack.

[andym]

Yes, the two sets represent the "early" and "late" schemes.

I recently brushed out test swatches of the colours to have a closer look at them. In the "early" set I venture that the base Khaki is a little too dark and not quite yellow enough - this colour faded to a much lighter colour, to something even approaching FS 20260. This is a difficult colour to match. I haven't tried it but I suspect adding a little Humbrol 186 Matt Brown to 225 Middle Stone may get into the ball park. The green started bright as in the set and was often described as "light green" but UV exposure made it go reddish so it ended up looking more olive in hue. Humbrol are never quite strong enough for Japanese greens but Revell's semi-gloss 363 Dunkelgrün doesn't look bad. The brown in the set looks good and a measure of this elusive "tea colour" is that I cannot quite match it in any other standard or paint range! Closest so far is Humbrol 186 Matt Brown.

I have seen comments elsewhere that the Karekusa base colour in the "late" set is too dark and too green but I think that is because some people are expecting it should be more of a "light sand" in hue. This goes back to the perceptions of "khaki" and "dried grass" I mentioned in the earlier post. It looks ok to me, again maybe a bit dark and perhaps not quite yellow enough. This colour appears similar in character to the German dark yellow - a sort of greenish ochre. Revell 86 Khaki is not bad - maybe not quite green enough - or you could try adding a little Humbrol 86 Matt Olive to 225 Middle Stone.

It seems the various artistic depictions of these tanks may have confused and conflated the Khaki and Karekusa base colours into being the same "light sand". Having a quick look at images of models on the net it seems most of these do too.

As well as the yellow "cruciform" added to the early camouflage, the later camouflage sometimes had two additional colours added in the form of a yellowish ochre or sand and/or a rather bright light green - perhaps to create more contrast in what was essentially a low contrast scheme.

Nick

Thanks for posting that, interesting stuff and something to think about.

Andy

[TonyT]

Hmm. Perhaps I won't bother posting anything more on this topic. Clearly a list of old hobby paints is of much more interest and use than the fruits of my recent research.

No the question mark was are these not correct?

[Test Graham]

http://www.gunze.pl/go/_category/?idc=id_1...ord_row=long=pl

The sets are available in Poland. Expensive but perhaps worth a try?

[Nick Millman]

http://www.gunze.pl/go/_category/?idc=id_1...ord_row=long=pl

The sets are available in Poland. Expensive but perhaps worth a try?

I'm sure you can order them direct from HLJ. I did mine and there was no problem with them being sent by post, although I cannot recall if they came alone or with other items. Prices seem OK too. One thing I would mention is that if you are a brush painter these paints are clearly intended for air brushing only. I found it was necessary to lay tedious multiple coats on the test swatches to build up a "solid" colour. And finish is satin rather than matt.

GSI Tank Color Set Early

GSI Tank Color Set Late

[Test Graham]

I couldn't find them, or any paint, on HLJ. Looking on another Japanese site, possibly Rainbow 10, I found a very clear statement that the Japanese postal authorities did not permit the posting of any solvent-based products. Having seen that, there didn't seem any great value in looking further. They are certainly considerably cheaper than the ones from Poland, but too bad, I'd ordered them before you posted.

It's unfortunate that they are poor for airbrushing, for I really don't see that as the best way of doing complex schemes in 1/76.

[Tigerausfb]

I'm not sure if it adds anything to this particular conversation but Bovingtons Ha-Go still had some original bits of paint visible when I was looking at it a few years ago. Unfortunately I wasn't into Japanese armour at the time or would have taken a keener interest. When I'm down there next I'll see if I can at least get some photos before the remnants get covered in Dulux or something similar.

The only vehicle I've ever been able to turn the turret of just using my forefinger.

Andy

[Nick Millman]

I couldn't find them, or any paint, on HLJ. Looking on another Japanese site, possibly Rainbow 10, I found a very clear statement that the Japanese postal authorities did not permit the posting of any solvent-based products. Having seen that, there didn't seem any great value in looking further. They are certainly considerably cheaper than the ones from Poland, but too bad, I'd ordered them before you posted.

It's unfortunate that they are poor for airbrushing, for I really don't see that as the best way of doing complex schemes in 1/76.

Yes, HLJ's site is not easy for finding things like that - and I'm sorry, I wished I had posted the information and links earlier. Not sure I follow that last comment! I haven't tried airbrushing with them but assume they would be ok. For hand brushing they are not good at all, requiring multiple coats to achieve solid colour and very long curing time between coats with very evident brush strokes. They might be better thinned but if I was painting 1/76 models I think I would use a brush and Humbrol paints matched or mixed to replicate the GSI colours.

There is a good seller based in Hong Kong who can supply GSI's Mr Color lacquer line by post. I have found him very fast and reliable. His prices include p&p.

Kenncer Ebay Store

He doesn't show the whole range but might be able to get them.

Nick

[Test Graham]

No, it was my problem for not persevering a little longer with HLJ.

It doesn't make sense, does it? I meant poor for handbrushing, airbrushing being less than ideal for such subjects . I'll leave it unedited to avoid spoiling your posting, but I think your text is clear as to the use of these paints.

What I have done in the past with poor covering paints - such as WEM or Xtracolour - is to use a close Humbrol undercoat to get the coverage, then the top coat provides the right colour. Any patchiness can then look rather more like weathering than poor brushwork/coverage. Another possibility may be to go the "scale colour" route, mixing it with a little light grey or whie from a range with better covering properties, but I'm not sure it would be worth the trouble.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Graham Boak

[Nick Millman]

It's a good tip, thanks, and one that WEM have also recommended for handbrushing their paints. One of the problems with GSI paints is their potential volatility with other paints but anyone who believes in "scale colour" would probably find the paints from the bottle too dark for 1/72nd or 1/76th subjects.

Nick