Mustang IV ”Loop” scheme and the Unknown Serial of "Sweetpea” GL-N (5 sqn SAAF)

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

Mustang IV A ”Sweetpea” GL-N was mentioned in another Britmodeler thread. Stefaan Bouwer’s comment was: ” Hi Guys. I just went on to that thread. The photo of the Mustangs GL is 5 sqdn SAAF in Italy. The centre of the roundels are Orange. Sweatpea was a repaint job, most likely in the MU as it does not conform to any of the other SAAF Mustangs seen. It comes from our book SAAF at War and SADF Colours and Markings. Copy not as good as the original.”

( http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.p...40&start=40 )

The referred copy of of the ”Sweetpea” photo can be found here at the time of writing this:

http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy201/S...flash_Tones.jpg

Very interesting RAF Mustang with camouflage, personal and unit markings plus national colour cocade center! Not many of those around.

The camo pattern on the ”Sweetpea” looked like a ”Loop” scheme to me and quick search in Internet brought around the brilliant homepage about 3 squadron RAAF. The site has also camouflage articles and the various schemes found, including the Loop scheme: ”3 Sqn RAAF Mustang Mk.IVas - a Reassessment” by Steve Mackenzie

http://www.3squadron.org.au/subpages/Musta...0P-51K%20P1.htm

What is even better the ”Sweetpea” GL-N is the other of the two Loop pattern examples shown as profiles:

http://www.3squadron.org.au/subpages/Musta...0P-51K%20P6.htm

Now the problem is the serial of ”Sweetpea” GL-N is unkown. It starts with a KH and this is all which is shown in the profile drawn. Is it possible to crack this nut?

This site gives the codes of the known 5 sqn SAAF Mustangs: http://www.icon.co.za/~pauljnr/5squadron.htm The KH- Mustangs of the 5 squadron were: 671, 673, 681 (GL-Z +Feb 4th, 1945), 692, 705, 713, 717, 731, 736, 741, 753, 768, 780, 796, 799, 800, 805, 808, 809, 810, 814, 817 and 828. Of these KH828 was for sure Natural Metal (photo: http://www.swissmustangs.ch/mediac/400_0/m...28_44_11736.jpg ) and likely the others above 800 (or at least above 807, ref McGrady in this thread: http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/thre...28/RAF+Mustangs ).

As the ”Loop” scheme was found on those airframes arriving from UK (and painted there with British spec paints) it might narrow the ”Sweetpea” KHxxx serial candidates. Terry McGrady wrotes that there is about 46 KH series Mustang IV As arrived to MTO from UK (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=3344 ). Unfortunately I have no idea which these 46 were, can you help?

The 3 sqn RAAF site gives following examples* of ”Loop” scheme Mustangs in addition to ”Sweetpea" GL-N:

(KH663) PD-L of 303 sqn RAF (serial not given by the site but found elsewhere)

KH682 GN-B of 249 sqn RAF

KH690 CV-P of 3 sqn RAAF

*References:

http://www.3squadron.org.au/subpages/Musta...0P-51K%20P6.htm

http://www.3squadron.org.au/subpages/Musta...op%20scheme.txt

Looking the photos of 442 sqn RCAF Mustangs it looks to my eyes that these Mustangs have also the Loop pattern, too:

KH661 Y2-T

KH680 Y2-B ”Edmonton Special”.

See the photos here: http://www.thescale.info/news/publish/442-...-Mustangs.shtml and compare them with the Loop pattern given at 3 sqn RAAF site. The Mustangs Y2-C, Y2-H and Y2-T seem also to have the Loop pattern but serials are not visible nor given. Can anyone help here?

From the collected data it looks like the ”Loop” scheme is to be found on airframes around the point where IV were changed to IV A (KH661 ”oldest” and KH690 ”yongest", see above).

So given the pondering above am I on the right tracks if I guess that the serial of the Mustang ”Sweetpea” GL-N is likely one of those lower than KH716? (KH716 CV-P was the first NMF Mustang in 3 sqn RAAF)

The candidates would then be: KH671, KH673, KH692, KH705 and KH713 . Were they all transferred from UK?

A bit longwinged text but anyway here it is. Comments, corrections etc. welcomed,

Kari

Edited May 6, 2010 by Kari Lumppio

[Terry McGrady]

Hi Kari ,.

In short the answer is no. CV*Z of 3 RAAF was KH760 and was camouflaged, CV*G of 3 raaf , KH791 was camouflaged GL*I KH741 of 5 SAAF also camouflaged

Cheers

Terry McGrady

Edited May 6, 2010 by Terry McGrady

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

CV-Z, KH760 had Firewall not Loop pattern? And IIRC Muir gives KH791 as without code in his book? My notes were made hastily last night so I may have them incorrect. Thank you for the 5 SAAF code.

Kari

Edited May 6, 2010 by Kari Lumppio

[Terry McGrady]

Hello!

CV-Z, KH760 had Firewall not Loop pattern? And IIRC Muir gives KH791 as without code in his book? My notes were made hastily last night so I may have them incorrect. Thank you for the 5 SAAF code.

Kari

Well I have a number of 5 SAAF serial / Aircraft letter tie ups kindly provided by Stefaan

To me the " Loop scheme " is indicative of a repaint .

KH647, KH661 of 442 and KH663 of 303 were all Dallas built P51D-5 NT and were originally painted in the USA in ANA scheme .

KH647 served with 154 before going to 442. These Aircraft arrived in the UK between end of Sept 44 and Late October .

They were not issued to Squadrons until March 45 at earliest.So between assembly at Martin Hearnes and issue to Squadron anything up to 6Months passed .

I have read reports that the paint finish on mustangs wasnt of the best quality . If the A/C were protected by pliofilm then it is possible large peices of paint came off when being cleaned up and assembled hence the repaint .

I must stress that the repainting is very much my own opinion

Cheers

Terry McGrady

[Terry McGrady]

Hello!

CV-Z, KH760 had Firewall not Loop pattern? And IIRC Muir gives KH791 as without code in his book? My notes were made hastily last night so I may have them incorrect. Thank you for the 5 SAAF code.

Kari

just had another look through info I have and GL*N WAS NOT KH681 692, 713 727,

As for KH791 I have a photo of the A/C

Cheers

Terry

[Stefaan]

Hi Kari.

Just saw your post.

Not much time to get on the site and off to the bush tomorrow.

Do some bird photography.

I have also never found the serial for Sweetpea since we wrote those books.

I can tell you that the photo was most likely taken just after the war, so any GL N's that were lost that will have a serial, will not be Sweetpea.

Steve Brooking is doing a book on the Mustangs.

I am sure this a/c took part in the Victory flypast, so that may help with the serial.

Will dig next week and get back to you guys.

Stefaan

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

Still bothering about the issue. I bought the new Osprey title "RAF Mustang and Thunderbolt aces" ( http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/RAF-..._9781846039799/ ) at local aviation book shop.

I could add two or three new members to the "Loop" -pattern Mustangs. All of them in the KH-series. Right now the table I have collected has following eight "Loop"-pattern Mustang IVs:

KH647 442 sqn Y2 H

KH655 19 sqn QV P

KH661 442 sqn Y2 T

KH663 303 sqn PD L

KH680 442 sqn Y2 B

KH682 249 sqn GN B

KH690 3 sqn CV P

KH695 65 sqn YT E

I would like to hear comments about the list, even if you disagree. My sources have been various internet sites, Muir's book about Australian Mustangs (I blame Nick Millman for this -good- purchase!) and the above mentioned Osprey Mustang RAF ace book.

The 3 sqn RAAF site source ( http://www.3squadron.org.au/subpages/Musta...op%20scheme.txt ) also mentions that several 65 sqn Mustang IV carried the "Loop"-pattern. Source given is the photo in book Mustang at War (Ian Allan) on page 126. I haven't yet managed to find the book and photo but I guess the serials are not visible at least on the printed photo? In any case it seems at least five 65 sqn KH-series Mustang IVs are within "the "Loop" pattern bracket" (= KH643 YT-S, KH684 YT-C, KH685, KH686 and KH695 YT-E), KH695 being at the moment highest serial with "Loop" pattern as far as I have recorded.

In fact it does not matter if the "Loop"-pattern was a result of a repaint of an earlier camouflage or overpainting the "NMF" finish. The need for the repaint was gone after the decision was made to accept the "NMF" unpainted Mustang IV(A)s.

The fact that Loop pattern seems to have been painted on those planes arriving to MTO from/via UK might help to sort out the serial for "Sweetpea". And this was/is what I am still looking for.

Thanking for your interest Gentlemen,

Kari

[Terry McGrady]

Hi Kari ,

I have a tatty copy of Mustang at War . Page 126 doesn't show any serials However ,

KH642 , 644 , 646 , 648 , 657, 658 and 668 , all served with 65 sq , at one time or another, these being Mustang MKIV / P51D-5NT

Sweetpea was a Mustang IVA / P51 K-1 NT so far as I can determine , but if Stefaan has been unable to find a serial then I think the chances of ever knowing the serial are extremely remote

Regards

Terry

Edited May 15, 2010 by Terry McGrady

[Nick Millman]

(I blame Nick Millman for this -good- purchase!)

Why buck a trend!

[Stefaan]

Hi Terry.

I am still digging, but no luck so far.

I did find a photo of only the fin of GL L, and see it is also the 'Loop' scheme.

Also no serial, but will now go and try to find that on one of my hard drives.

If anybody gets to Kew and can look up the a/c flying the Victory Fly Past in Italy, one can try to work it out.

I have not seen it in our archives.

I know they were then based at Udine.

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd272/j...wer/gllints.jpg

Be good

Stefaan

[Terry McGrady]

Hi Stefaan ,

Well I have the Old Aircam No3 which has photos of a flypast , unfortunately the only Clear codes discenable are for two MKIII

GL*D and GL*W There are two Mustang MKIVAs with paint removed except for the Rudder , one of these is purported to br GL*N and another which could be GL*J which was KH727 and went to 93 Sq post war as DV*J

A trip to PRO might not bring any answers depends on how good the Squadron Clerk was a time , as I've discovered .

Best regards

Terry

[Terry McGrady]

Hi Kari ,

Bit of an update . I've been in touch with a friend in Australia who has 5 SAAF records on microfilm . He's not found anything usefil at the moment , but will continue looking and will let me know if he finds anything out.

Regards

Terry

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

Terry and Stefaan, thank you for all your efforts.

Regarding the serial for "Sweetpea", it's not always the destination which matters but the journey. I have learned a lot since getting interested in RAF Mustangs. That happened couple of years ago after reading "A separate little war" by Andy Bird. The book tells about raids against German shipping along Norwegian coast. Nearly a "local story" for me. RAF Mustangs provided cover for the Mosquitos and Beaufighters for those coastal raids and lot of them seem to have carried the Loop pattern.

Regards,

Kari

[Kari Lumppio]

Hi!

 

I noticed that there are now several decal sheets for "Sweetpea" Mustang KH673. Apparently research has progressed during the passing ten years.

 

Can anyone add more where the confirmation of the code KH673 came? Just for curiosity reasons.

 

 

Cheers,

Kari

[72modeler]

Does this help?

Mike

 

http://jproc.ca/ve3fab/lancaster_electronics_fit_ww2.html

 

https://web.ipmsusa3.org/content/north-american-p-51-iva-k-british-camouflaged-mustangs

 

 

[Kari Lumppio]

Hi!

 

Thank you for the response 72modeler. One more decal sheet with the code solved and agreeing with others.

 

I am more after references. For example did Stefaan or someone has found a photo showing the "Sweetpea" code KH673 or did it come from some archived document.? (Edit. Note that I am asking a question, not suggesting that Stefaan has connection with the mentioned code.)

Or is it simply a guess and others have followed? Wouldn't be the first time.

 

Cheers,

Kari

Edited May 24, 2020 by Kari Lumppio

[Ozhawk40]

Hi Kari

 

This could help or hinder, but anyway, in Phil Listermann's book Squadrons! No 11 on page 20, he notes that GL-N was KH671 in April 1945.

 

 

in addition "Bravo Bravo Aviation" website has a profile with Sweetpea listed as KH671 in May 1945.

 

https://www.bravobravoaviation.com/en/north-american-p-51-mustang/512-print-of-the-north-american-mustang-mk-iv-sweetpea-no-5-squadron-saaf-italy-1945.html

 

[Kari Lumppio]

Thanks!

 

So there still exists difference of opinion.

 

Stay safe,

Kari

[Stefaan]

Hi Kari.

I see you are mentioning me as the person linking KH673 as Sweatpea, even though I stated in my initial posts that I could never link a serial to Sweatpea??????

Steve brooking eventually linked it as KM105 lost 16/17 Apr 1945.

I did dig up more info in recent years.

I have a logbook entry for Moolman flying GL-N on 4/3/45

Then I have a War Diary entry for 4/3/45 with Moolman flying KH605 on same date.

No gueses here..

I hope the photos are loading.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/109442698@N03/49749580647/in/dateposted-public/

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/109442698@N03/49929455316/in/dateposted-public/

 

That gives us a serial and a code for a date. Wether it was called Sweatpea on that date is another question.

 

 

Edited May 24, 2020 by Stefaan

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello Stefaan!

 

Thank You for the answer. Which is KH605 based on primary sources.

 

I edited my earlier message to clarify my question.

 

All the best,

Kari

 

PS I do not see any photos. Working right now. Hope that continues.

Edited May 24, 2020 by Kari Lumppio

[Stefaan]

Hi Kari.

1 photo showing. Click on the lower link for the 2nd shot of the logbook.

Be good

Stefaan

 

 

[tonyot]

For what it is worth,.....I finished this model of Sweet Pea on Britmodeller years ago back in 2012,.... to be fair I cannot remember how I came up with the serial KH672?;

 

And also this 3 Sqn RAAF aircraft;

 

And this link shows some 442 Sqn RCAF models too;

 

Cheers,

           Tony

Edited May 24, 2020 by tonyot

[Stefaan]

Looks real good Tony. Like your Sweatpea badge.

 

[tonyot]

4 hours ago, Stefaan said:

Looks real good Tony. Like your Sweatpea badge.

 

Thanks Stefaan,.... I brush painted it on,....... I think I may have got the serial via Aidan Owen who sent me the photos. I have tried contacting him quite a few times in the past 3-4 years but he seems to have gone off the radar and I`ve asked around,..... nobody knows how he is?