Ocean Grey

[greatgonzo]

It is Polish Wings all right. There is also a suggestion the photo is a good reference for wethering job, although the quality of the picture is devastating .

Very interesting position in my opinion, though.

[AnonymousAA72]

I have vivid memories of being torn to shreds for misinterpreting a photo of Lightnings, and it appears that I am unique in my inability to spot a duff published copy of a photo. Therefore, I'll leave the thread with this compilation of two published prints from the same IWM source. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I firmly believe that one of them can't be trusted to be an accurate portrayal, and, before the "Well, anyone can tell that........" comments start, the green/sand version comes from a book written by Douglas Bader, and no-one found fault with the book, when it was published.

Now........I CAN see Brown /Dark Earth in both of these pic's!

Edited May 3, 2010 by Bill Clark

[dambuster]

I post these here for interest.

Mustang 1942

Mustang 1943

Spitfire 1942

And for comparison with the above:

Copyright acknowledged, posted here for discusion purposes.

Peter

[greatgonzo]

Could You, please, add a word or two of explanation? I do not get this comparison idea at all. What's a point, if You don't mind?

[MilneBay]

Spitfire 1942

ThatSpitfire would appear to have been photographed with orthochrome film - note the black roundel outer ring.

[Doug Rogers]

I don't recognise that camo pattern either, definitely not A or B pattern, must have just been 'applied in the field'.

My ten pennorth, I can't see the point in endlessly poring over black and white or bizarrely balanced colour pics and then speculating over what the colours might have been. We seem to get these threads at least once a month, and it always ends up with bad feelings.

Apologies if I have offended anyone about anything, I'm going to bed now,

Doug von sleepdeprivedonnightshift.

[davidelvy]

Could You, please, add a word or two of explanation? I do not get this comparison idea at all. What's a point, if You don't mind?

Yes, can you say what you think these pictures may demonstrate?

As for my opinion, I think debates about colour will just go on and on. Whatever opinion one person has will be countered by another with apparently equally valid arguments. There is a gap in our knowledge and we are trying to fill it by extrapolating from what we do know.It seems that there is always some variable which means we can never be sure. Different film, different lighting and different processing produce different effects. Pigments degrade over time. Memory fades over time and is influenced by what we learn. And to cap it all what I describe as dark green you may describe as olive drab while another person may describe olive drab as a brown.

I think these debates are interesting and I always read the comments when one kicks off. Ultimately, however, they seem to fizzle out in frustration as although we learn a lot on the way we never get our definitive answer.

Going back to the pictures, though, I do think the 1942 Spitfire picture is interesting. If we leave aside the question of colour it seems to be an good example of an aircraft that has been partially re-painted to blend in miss-matched panels from various donors.

[gingerbob]

Referencing the last two posts about how these 'debates' go on and on, may I point out that the first question (mine) was "What documentary evidence is there concerning Ocean Grey and 'mixed grey'?"

I knew that such a question would inevitably devolve into arguments about photographs and bruised egos, which is not to say I was trolling. I was hoping that some folks would actually show examples of dated, written documents that spoke to the adoption of the new colors. To a very limited degree that did happen, but I'm afraid "there's discussion in Lucas" doesn't help me. Can't we show some evidence, so that we can all look at the "facts" and make our own minds up? THEN we can get all upset when other people fail to reach the same conclusion as we do... Heck, I'm not even looking for a conclusion, just information.

By the way, I don't get the point either, but those were two great Mustang shots, so thanks!

bob

[Steven Eisenman]

Spitfire 1942

ThatSpitfire would appear to have been photographed with orthochrome film - note the black roundel outer ring.

Something else is going on... Ortho film makes the red near black and lightens the blue, the yellow is muddy gray not black. That is different than whats going on in the picture. Also note what should be the red part of the Polish checkerboard is closer in tone to the green of the camouflage than the red of the roundel. Red not added? Unlikely in a Polish Squadron.

Trying to noodle what is going on - Ortho with a filter? Odd film emulsion? Printing?

[Test Graham]

Edgar, can you give a reference for the second item, other than the month and year?

I noticed that the paint was described as Type M, which would be consistent, I think, with your discoveries about the date for Supermarine adopting Type S top colours?

[Dave Fleming]

Something else is going on... Ortho film makes the red near black and lightens the blue, the yellow is muddy gray not black. That is different than whats going on in the picture. Also note what should be the red part of the Polish checkerboard is closer in tone to the green of the camouflage than the red of the roundel. Red not added? Unlikely in a Polish Squadron.

Trying to noodle what is going on - Ortho with a filter? Odd film emulsion? Printing?

Dull red for the roundel, bright red for the Polish marking?

Or different types of ortho film? The RAF wartime dull blue on the roundel didn't produce that much of a lightening effect, but the yellow ring on the roundel was often seen as 'black' as well as the dark/mid grey it sometimes appeared as. The very light Ocean Grey could also be a result of ortho lightening the blue component.

An alternative could be 'pan' film with the use of a strong blue filter.

[thx6667]

An alternative could be 'pan' film with the use of a strong blue filter.

Which was Steve Sauvé's informed conclusion over on HS.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/message/1257466876/

[Dave Fleming]

Which was Steve Sauvé's informed conclusion over on HS.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/message/1257466876/

And me on the same thread!!

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/mess...+with+you+but...

Actually, Pan with a strong blue filter will produce an effect close to tradional 'Ortho'. You also have to take into conideration that one film stock may nt react as another. But Steve's Mustang shot is a classic, especially the rudders!!

Edited May 4, 2010 by Dave Fleming

[Steven Eisenman]

Dull red for the roundel, bright red for the Polish marking?

Or different types of ortho film? The RAF wartime dull blue on the roundel didn't produce that much of a lightening effect, but the yellow ring on the roundel was often seen as 'black' as well as the dark/mid grey it sometimes appeared as. The very light Ocean Grey could also be a result of ortho lightening the blue component.

An alternative could be 'pan' film with the use of a strong blue filter.

Th Polish checkerboard could have been done in a different red altogether, although it does seem to be bright and not typical of red on ortho.. Blue filter would have turned the blue of the roundel very, very light. Remember, the filter color will lighten that color and darken the red. It is odd.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Steven Eisenman

[Stefaan]

Hi Guys.

I just went on to that thread.

The photo of the Mustangs GL is 5 sqdn SAAF in Italy.

The centre of the roundels are Orange.

Sweatpea was a repaint job, most likely in the MU as it does not conform to any of the other SAAF Mustangs seen.

It comes from our book SAAF at War and SADF Colours and Markings.

Copy not as good as the original.

Stefaan Bouwer

[Brad-M]

Hi Edgar,

I'd love to go to Hendon, but I am on the other side of the globe in BC Canada, so it's quite problematic for me.

Just trying to add a bit of humour to this great thread.

Cheers

Brad

I'm not offended, just disappointed at the attempts to judge colours from dud photos, when the originals are available for inspection, for anyone willing to make the effort to travel to Hendon.

Edgar

[Steve in Ottawa]

I've, at last, managed to get hold of a copy of that Polish Wings book, and here's the photo (top,) together with the Bunrin-do effort, from 30 years ago. I've had to lighten the top one, since the "original" is extremely dark, while the Bunrin-do photo is "as-is."

Edgar

One thing that you can really appreciate more in a colour image, is just how beat-up and 'used'-looking these aircraft were in operational service. Makes the pristine finishes often seen at model contests look quite idealized, not the way they really were.

[Nick Millman]

Thank you for showing these Edgar.

The top photo looks like the typical result of very poor colour process and printing, the roundels appearing almost purple, whilst the bottom photograph appears better reproduced and balanced. The scheme looks like standard Temperate Land with Sky Blue fuselage band and spinner & Sea Grey Medium codes. Roundel colours appear "bright". The difference in appearance between the spinner colour and Sky undersurfaces may just be discerned although the angles and shadows will have affected the reflectivity. The dark green on the outer sections of the wings appears to have been touched up with Humbrol 30!

As you so astutely note the weathering does not conform to a gridwork of highlighted (lowlighted?) panel lines, especially on the wings! Despite the beat up and stained appearance the paint surface still has lustre and is not dead flat matt. The staining on the leading edge of the wings is interesting. Is it lubricant from the engine area being forced along by the airflow?

Regards

Nick

[AnonymousAA72]

Interesting to compare these two.......

Note the yellow l/e of the Vb....

And lack of yellow l/e

Edited May 11, 2010 by Bill Clark

[Stefaan]

Hi Nick.

No way is the spinner and Sky fuselage band the same as the underside.

What the underside is one can only guess.

The Sky band does not change the colour towards the underside as it goes down the fuselage.

There is also a line of the underside underneath the Sky band, showing that the underside may have been painted over the Sky band at a later as the band is not 'wrap around'

Be good

Stefaan

Edited May 11, 2010 by Stefaan

[Vingtor]

It was quite common that the underside (pre July '41), spinner/tailband, and code letters (post July '41) were painted in different shades of Sky.

Nils

[Nick Millman]

Hi Nick.

No way is the spinner and Sky fuselage band the same as the underside.

What the underside is one can only guess.

The Sky band does not change the colour towards the underside as it goes down the fuselage.

There is also a line of the underside underneath the Sky band, showing that the underside may have been painted over the Sky band at a later as the band is not 'wrap around'

Be good

Stefaan

Er, that is what I already wrote:- "The scheme looks like standard Temperate Land with Sky Blue fuselage band and spinner & Sea Grey Medium codes. Roundel colours appear "bright". The difference in appearance between the spinner colour and Sky undersurfaces may just be discerned although the angles and shadows will have affected the reflectivity."

Last time I looked AM Sky Blue and AM Sky were not the same colours! ;-)

Given the caveat about reflectivity the undersurface colour may be seen below the cowling. I would not want to interpret what is happening to the lower edge of the fuselage band as unequivocally as you have done. It could just be dirt or shadow there.

RTFPMC!

Nick

Edited May 11, 2010 by Nick Millman

[timbo33]

One thing that you can really appreciate more in a colour image, is just how beat-up and 'used'-looking these aircraft were in operational service. Makes the pristine finishes often seen at model contests look quite idealized, not the way they really were.

I agree. I saw a post on here where someone had posted a fantastic Eastern Front Bf 109 that looked well worn and all everyone said was 'Weathering's a bit overdone' - I don't think so. I like the fact this photo shows the leading edges touched up to cover chipping.

P.S. LOL at Nick's Post!! I agree about the colour change at the bottom of the fuselage band - probably just dirt - don't suppose the groundcrew spent a lot of time cleaning the underside of the aircraft..

Edited May 11, 2010 by timbo33

[Steve in Ottawa]

Thank you for showing these Edgar.

The top photo looks like the typical result of very poor colour process and printing, the roundels appearing almost purple, whilst the bottom photograph appears better reproduced and balanced. The scheme looks like standard Temperate Land with Sky Blue fuselage band and spinner & Sea Grey Medium codes. Roundel colours appear "bright". The difference in appearance between the spinner colour and Sky undersurfaces may just be discerned although the angles and shadows will have affected the reflectivity. The dark green on the outer sections of the wings appears to have been touched up with Humbrol 30!

As you so astutely note the weathering does not conform to a gridwork of highlighted (lowlighted?) panel lines, especially on the wings! Despite the beat up and stained appearance the paint surface still has lustre and is not dead flat matt. The staining on the leading edge of the wings is interesting. Is it lubricant from the engine area being forced along by the airflow?

Regards

Nick

I noted that darker leading edge business, too. My thought is that it's simply fresh paint touch-ups to maintain the critical finish on the leading edge, as well as repairing wear and tear on the roundels near the gun muzzle openings.

[Brad-M]

If you compare the center section of the fin flash to the spinner and fuselage band, they look very very similar, so I don't think the spinner and band are duck egg anything, and look very close to white?

Cheers

Brad