Ocean Grey

[gingerbob]

Edgar

This was buried in the Typhoon NF thread, but I thought it was an interesting question that we should discuss. Edgar's take (if I'm interpreting correctly) is that this memo equates Ocean Grey and Mixed Grey, and he also says that 'Ocean Grey' does not appear in official texts (that may be too broad a generalization) until 1942.

I would have expected that Ocean Grey was defined much quicker (and apparently, as referred to on the memo, it was), and I thought it was more a case of "use this mix as an acceptable substitute" rather than the mix being considered synonymous with the official colour (which is not the same as saying it IS the same colour).

A very quick check of my limited sources showed, in the old Bowyer "Fighting Colours" p.54, this:

"On 24 July 1941 drawings produced [at Hawkers] showed the hitherto brown camouflage areas replaced by a shade called 'ocean grey', but possibly what became known as dark sea grey for the true Ocean Grey in use later had a very bluish tone..."

The Camouflage and Markings series has somewhat contradictory comments from one type to the next. In the Spitfire one it says:

"Both Ocean Grey and the mixed grey came into use on production Spitfires on 16 August 1941 [elsewhere it says that Supermarine amended the drawings this date], but Ocean Grey became the main colour used for the rest of the war years. The mixed grey, from available evidence, went out of use and reference to it was removed from drawings but it was re-instated on 2 Oct '43, and from this date either grey was specified..."

and in the Hurricane one:

"Both greys are referred to in official documents, including Air Ministry Orders, as Ocean Grey, but it is advisable to differentiate between the two shades."

While the Whirlwind section says

"[mixed grey] supplied by the paint manufacturers in a ready-mixed form... Both colours were loosely referred to as Ocean Grey, although the former shade was closer to Dark Sea Grey in colour."

What documentary evidence do we have for the adoption of the official colour 'Ocean Grey', in name and as an available stores item, and how did the powers that be (that were?) express the instructions? The Spitfire section of C&M also comments on the several pigments required to make 'proper' Ocean Grey- is it possible that the going and coming of mixed grey was to address shortages of a particular pigment?

Also, when this change took place, Medium Sea Grey was the colour for code letters (and what else?). Now it was being required on the full underside AND as the major component of the new topside colour. Why was it available to meet such suddenly increased volume?

Over to you,

bob

Edited April 29, 2010 by gingerbob

[Fernando]

AMO 664 from 2-7-42 is the one to introduce the whole camouflage system according to "British aviation Colours of WW2", RAF Museum series Vol.3. The wording strongly suggest that "Ocean Grey" is a well known name and colour. They quote no earlier document. Also, it is a fact that if you mix seven MSG plus one Black you do not get Ocean Grey, but Dark Sea Grey. Previous to that, MSG was not cited as used in camouflage; the colour of code letters is said as "a grey colour".

I wonder if all this is useful to you...

Fernando, there in Haiti.

[Vingtor]

The "mixed grey" colour is specified as a mix of seven parts MSG and one part Night. There are however many different shades of the new grey camouflage colour until Ocean Grey became readily available. I have seen photos of aircraft with a light grey that can not been distinguished from the MSG underside colour, while other photos show a very dark colour.

A subject that is of special interest to me is the Hurricane Mk.IIb aircraft of No. 331 Squadron. These were factory new aircraft which were delivered to the squadron from late July 1941. They were apparently delivered from the factory in the Dark Green / Dark Earth / Sky scheme. But photos taken while in service with 331 Sqn. show that they had been given a repaint. The photos also show a very dark grey camouflage colour with a low contrast to the Dark Green colour.

I would suggest that the colour is a very dark mix of MSG and Night, or possibly even Extra Dark Sea Grey.

331 Sqn. was at this time located at the Orkneys and Shetland, and was thus not among the prioritized squadrons to be repainted in the Day Fighter Scheme. They were however in a special situation in that they were flying mostly over the dark North Sea waters, and were likely to encounter enemy aircraft.

Any comments to this?

Nils

[Dave Fleming]

Paul Lucas covers the introduction of Ocean Grey in his book for Aviation Workshop, and mentions the note that Edgar produces in his first post..

IMO it's fairly simple, the 7+1 mix is the closest approx to Ocean Grey in terms of reflectance and shade that can be produced from available standard paints (and MSG was being pushed out as the new underside colour and was used for codes, so would be in most stores anyway - by contrast, DSG was not all that well used a colour on RAF fighter squadrons).

I suspect it was designed to give a shade lighter than DSG

[Vingtor]

When was Dark Sea Grey specified as a MAP colour, and what was it used for until about 1941?

Nils

[stevehnz]

The "mixed grey" colour is specified as a mix of seven parts MSG and one part Night. There are however many different shades of the new grey camouflage colour until Ocean Grey became readily available. I have seen photos of aircraft with a light grey that can not been distinguished from the MSG underside colour, while other photos show a very dark colour.

A subject that is of special interest to me is the Hurricane Mk.IIb aircraft of No. 331 Squadron. These were factory new aircraft which were delivered to the squadron from late July 1941. They were apparently delivered from the factory in the Dark Green / Dark Earth / Sky scheme. But photos taken while in service with 331 Sqn. show that they had been given a repaint. The photos also show a very dark grey camouflage colour with a low contrast to the Dark Green colour.

I would suggest that the colour is a very dark mix of MSG and Night, or possibly even Extra Dark Sea Grey.

331 Sqn. was at this time located at the Orkneys and Shetland, and was thus not among the prioritized squadrons to be repainted in the Day Fighter Scheme. They were however in a special situation in that they were flying mostly over the dark North Sea waters, and were likely to encounter enemy aircraft.

Any comments to this?

Nils

Nils, it occurs to me that based as they were in the Orkneys & Shetland Islands, the squadron may well have scrounged EDSG from the navy, not sure if that would have gone on or not but it sounds feasible & might explain the very dark appearance of the grey shade.

Steve.

[Vingtor]

Certainly pre-war; I've found painted transparencies, dated in early 1939, for aircraft like the Walrus, where it is already specified for the top surfaces of the lower wings of F.A.A. aircraft.

Thanks Edgar. I forgot about that. FAA shadow shading scheme for biplanes. Also used on Sea Gladiators.

Nils

[Vingtor]

Nils, it occurs to me that based as they were in the Orkneys & Shetland Islands, the squadron may well have scrounged EDSG from the navy, not sure if that would have gone on or not but it sounds feasible & might explain the very dark appearance of the grey shade.

Steve.

According to an airframe mechanic who was at the squadron at the time, they did not paint whole airframes at the squadron, only patches and repairs. Thus the aircraft must have been re-painted at an MU before delivery to the squadron.

It has been en "established fact" that 331 Squadron's Hurricanes were painted in the Temperate Land Scheme. The same mechanic has described the camouflage colours as "dark green, dark earth and duck egg blue". However when I met him last year I had prepared a couple of profile drawings, one in the TLS colours and one in the DFS colours with a very dark grey. He rejected the TLS and told that the DFS colours were right, but he still referred to the colour names "dark green, dark earth and duck egg blue".

Also, pgotos of 331 Squadron's Spitfire Mk.II aircraft show a very dark grey, while later Mk.V aircraft have a lighter grey. Here is a photo of an ex-331 Spitfire Mk.II, P7929 (in the background) taken later in its career, showing a grey colour that appears darker than the Dark Green camouflage colour. It is interesting to compare the camouflage colours to the nearest aircraft.

Nils

[Steven Eisenman]

Take a look at Polish Wings 6 Spitfire I / II. There are a goodly number of pictures of aircraft over painted with the new grey colour in September 1941. Most interesting, but not sure any conclusions can be drawn, as issues such as degree of application come into play.

http://www.hyperscale.com/2007/reviews/boo...6reviewse_1.htm

[Super Aereo]

According to an airframe mechanic who was at the squadron at the time, they did not paint whole airframes at the squadron, only patches and repairs. Thus the aircraft must have been re-painted at an MU before delivery to the squadron.

It has been en "established fact" that 331 Squadron's Hurricanes were painted in the Temperate Land Scheme. The same mechanic has described the camouflage colours as "dark green, dark earth and duck egg blue". However when I met him last year I had prepared a couple of profile drawings, one in the TLS colours and one in the DFS colours with a very dark grey. He rejected the TLS and told that the DFS colours were right, but he still referred to the colour names "dark green, dark earth and duck egg blue".

Also, pgotos of 331 Squadron's Spitfire Mk.II aircraft show a very dark grey, while later Mk.V aircraft have a lighter grey. Here is a photo of an ex-331 Spitfire Mk.II, P7929 (in the background) taken later in its career, showing a grey colour that appears darker than the Dark Green camouflage colour. It is interesting to compare the camouflage colours to the nearest aircraft.

Nils

It should actually be P7926 (not P7929) together with P7882 (in the more conventionally recognised colours) with the Empire Central Flying School. Charles E. Brown took a well known colour photo of them in September 1942, which appears in cropped form on page 44 of Polish Wings 6 (which Mr. Eisenmann mentioned) and in more complete form on the cover sleeve of the 1997 edition of the Battle of Britain book published by Salamander, in which Hurricane Z479(?) also appears in the foreground, agian with a very dark grey colour and Sky Blue (?) codes and spinner. P7926 also has her fuselage number 3 in blue, with standard Sky spinner and fuselage band.

Flavio

[Vingtor]

It should actually be P7926 (not P7929) together with P7882 (in the more conventionally recognised colours) with the Empire Central Flying School. Charles E. Brown took a well known colour photo of them in September 1942, which appears in cropped form on page 44 of Polish Wings 6 (which Mr. Eisenmann mentioned) and in more complete form on the cover sleeve of the 1997 edition of the Battle of Britain book published by Salamander, in which Hurricane Z479(?) also appears in the foreground, agian with a very dark grey colour and Sky Blue (?) codes and spinner. P7926 also has her fuselage number 3 in blue, with standard Sky spinner and fuselage band.

Thanks for the info. The photo you are referring to must be this:

Or this, depending on colour calibration.

It is evident that there is a variation of grey colours.

Nils

[Steven Eisenman]

Thanks for the info. The photo you are referring to must be this:

Or this, depending on colour calibration.

It is evident that there is a variation of grey colours.

Nils

Are you sure there is gray? Unless all those aircraft are in the "C" pattern (reversal of the location of the colors as on the A scheme), the green should run through the cockpit area. Which would mean they are perhaps DG/DE. Or, are they in FAA colors? I do love the top picture which shows evidence of PR Mauve being over sprayed on the entire airframe.

Edited May 2, 2010 by Steven Eisenman

[Vingtor]

I do think the colours are green and a dark grey on the to closer aircraft, while the third one is green and a lighter grey. However in Photoshop you can easily adjust the colour settings so that the colours appears whatever you like.

Another interesting photo when it comes to colours is this, Spitfire Mk.V, S.No. AD233, of No. 222 Sqn. over Essex 4 May 1942.

Here the green appears like a dark brown and has fooled many to think it is Dark Earth, while the grey has a green hue and can be taken as Dark Green.

Nils

[spitfire]

This all sounds very familiar, I'm pretty sure that there is a thread nearly identical to this one in the "archives", I even recognise some of the photos.

Cheers

Den

[thx6667]

Another interesting photo when it comes to colours is this, Spitfire Mk.V, S.No. AD233, of No. 222 Sqn. over Essex 4 May 1942.

Oh no Nils, not that one again!

Medics!

[Super Aereo]

The E.C.F.S. trio are green/brown, and I suspect that someone has printed the lower example (forget the top one; that's too ludicrous for words) to make the roundels appear to be dull red, when they were still in the early-war matt red (you can get a clue from the grotty red of the E.C.F.S. insignia, on the cowlings; it was, in fact, quite a bright red.) Remember that the grey/green scheme was for day fighters, while training aircraft were supposed to remain in the temperate land scheme (better for being parked on U.K. airfields, presumably.)

The Vb is always a bone of contention since it's in a reversed brown/green scheme (...)

With all due respect, I don't believe the E.C.F.S. trio to be in green/brown.

Not only the scheme would have reversed colours on all three aircraft if this was the case, but P7882 is clearly in DG/OG and the DG that does run through the cockpit area matches exactly the tone on the other two aircraft.

AMO A.926/40 did state that "Non-operational aircraft (excluding those mentioned in sub­paras. © to (f) below) are to be coloured yellow. Service types of aircraft in operational training units, air fighting development units, the Fighter Interception Unit and No. 2 School of Army Co-operation are to conform to the normal colour scheme for the aircraft role."

AMO A.513/41: "Aircraft in miscellaneous units.-Aircraft in operational training units, air fighting development units. fighter interception unit, special duty flights, fighter experimental establishment, No. 2 School of Army Co-operation and the Central Gunnery School, are to conform to the normal colour scheme for the aircraft role"

The concept is further stressed in AMO A.664/42: "Aircraft in operational training units, air fighting development units, Fighter Interception Unit, No. 2 School of Army Co-operation, the Central Gunnery School, meteorological flights, heavy glider conversion units and other special units of operational training unit category are to conform to the normal operational colour scheme for the role of the aircraft. Heavy types of operational aircraft used for advance training purposes may also conform to the normal operational scheme for the role of the aircraft."

Since the E.C.F.S was not a basic training outfit despite its name but rather a research and development school, it would stand to reason that the above regulations would have applied.

Another consideration, and the same applies for AD233, is that if the darker colour was DG it would not look so grey, nor would the lighter colour look so green.

And again the green in the cowling panel matches exactly the green on the fuselage.

Whatever the tones in the RAF museum photograph, and having seen different rendering of these images, I cannot second the interpretation of the camouflage as DG/DE.

And by the way, P7962 and P7882 have definitely roundels in Dull Red, which had obviously already been introduced.

All this in my humble opinion, of course, but it also stands to logic.

F.

[Fernando]

Sorry, but that is total nonsense;

Sorry, sir, I would not want to sound unpolite, but if you actually do the mix (I am sure you have) it is no way you could get the blue hue so characteristic of Ocean Grey (unless the chip in the work I mentioned is wrong or misleading and also is what is regarded as the hobby paint that best capture that color -Xtracolor). What you get is a more neutral tone closer to Dark Sea Grey. Now, I know DSG was an existing colour used for countershading biplanes painted in the Sea Scheme (so why bother with a mix proportion); I do not have the mix of pigments (I am sure you do and I would gladly be enlightened) but anyway I suppose it is not "7 parts MSG, 1 part Black", for the mix is indeed regarded as a new colour and not the existing DSG. Probably the wording of my answer should have been "... close to DSG", therefore avoiding any precise identification upon which you took offence.

Fernando, there in Haiti

[AnonymousAA72]

Oh no Nils, not that one again!

Medics!

I think some of that scrumpy stuff is required !!

FWIW and I don't mind saying it again..this is clearly NOT in Green/Brown. It is Green/Grey. Mixed Grey had been used to overpaint Dark Earth and there are also Ocean Grey panels and patches. Quite straightforward really!!

[AnonymousAA72]

The E.C.F.S. trio are green/brown, and I suspect that someone has printed the lower example (forget the top one; that's too ludicrous for words) to make the roundels appear to be dull red, when they were still in the early-war matt red (you can get a clue from the grotty red of the E.C.F.S. insignia, on the cowlings; it was, in fact, quite a bright red.) Remember that the grey/green scheme was for day fighters, while training aircraft were supposed to remain in the temperate land scheme (better for being parked on U.K. airfields, presumably.)

The Vb is always a bone of contention since it's in a reversed brown/green scheme (and I'm looking at the original, not being "fooled,") when all of the orders said that it should be in the day fighter scheme. However, there was a certain amount of leeway, with regard to the repainting, with certain Groups getting preference, and, in early 1942, 222 Squadron was not being used for offensive patrols over Europe, but carried out "kipper patrols," covering the North Sea fishing fleet, so remaining green/brown might not be so illogical. It can also be seen that the ailerons, and starboard wingtip have been replaced by green/grey examples, and the same looks to be the case with the top and bottom cowlings (on the original the top cowling is green/grey, the underside is MSG, and the side panel is green/brown.)

Edgar

its always a minefield trying to identify colours from photo's but I'd say these colours are more akin to Dark Slate Grey and Extra Dark Sea Grey. Well apart from the MkI at the top - that looks like there's some Ocean Grey in there....but whatever I can't see any "brown" in either rendition....

[AnonymousAA72]

With all due respect, I don't believe the E.C.F.S. trio to be in green/brown.

Not only the scheme would have reversed colours on all three aircraft if this was the case, but P7882 is clearly in DG/OG and the DG that does run through the cockpit area matches exactly the tone on the other two aircraft.

AMO A.926/40 did state that "Non-operational aircraft (excluding those mentioned in sub­paras. © to (f) below) are to be coloured yellow. Service types of aircraft in operational training units, air fighting development units, the Fighter Interception Unit and No. 2 School of Army Co-operation are to conform to the normal colour scheme for the aircraft role."

AMO A.513/41: "Aircraft in miscellaneous units.-Aircraft in operational training units, air fighting development units. fighter interception unit, special duty flights, fighter experimental establishment, No. 2 School of Army Co-operation and the Central Gunnery School, are to conform to the normal colour scheme for the aircraft role"

The concept is further stressed in AMO A.664/42: "Aircraft in operational training units, air fighting development units, Fighter Interception Unit, No. 2 School of Army Co-operation, the Central Gunnery School, meteorological flights, heavy glider conversion units and other special units of operational training unit category are to conform to the normal operational colour scheme for the role of the aircraft. Heavy types of operational aircraft used for advance training purposes may also conform to the normal operational scheme for the role of the aircraft."

Since the E.C.F.S was not a basic training outfit despite its name but rather a research and development school, it would stand to reason that the above regulations would have applied.

Another consideration, and the same applies for AD233, is that if the darker colour was DG it would not look so grey, nor would the lighter colour look so green.

And again the green in the cowling panel matches exactly the green on the fuselage.

Whatever the tones in the RAF museum photograph, and having seen different rendering of these images, I cannot second the interpretation of the camouflage as DG/DE.

And by the way, P7962 and P7882 have definitely roundels in Dull Red, which had obviously already been introduced.

All this in my humble opinion, of course, but it also stands to logic.

F.

Yep! Spot on.....I just cannot see Dark Earth in any of those photo's.

[Fernando]

If you wish to go by poor reproductions, there's nothing that I can say, so I'll clear the field and leave it to the experts. I have copies of the originals, and have also inspected the same photos, in the museum, and in daylight, together with the library staff.

No, I have not done any of the mixes, since I don't have the wartime ingredients, and trying to replicate them with modern enamels, or acrylics, with their ingredients, is, in my view, a total waste of time.

You'll be delighted that I've cleared away my wrong interpretations, and entries, so the field is all yours.

Edgar

Edgar,

Sorry to have offended you, honest... I apologize for the part of my concern. But we modelers are all the time trying to replicate historical thngs with modern ingredients... that's what we do.

Fernando, there in Haiti

Edited May 2, 2010 by Fernando

[Fernando]

I'm not offended, just disappointed at the attempts to judge colours from dud photos, when the originals are available for inspection, for anyone willing to make the effort to travel to Hendon.

Edgar

Excellent! For I had nothing to do with the photos row... just with the hue of Ocean Grey! Should I understand we might continue discussing the matter?For I consider it most intriguing...

Of course, please consider that my own chances of traveling to Hendon in the near future are remote to say the least...

Fernando, there in Haiti

[Super Aereo]

I am sure nobody is delighted by anything and I am sorry to see that a reasoned and logical discussion might have unintentionally caused offence or distress or whatever.

But all photographs are, by definition, reproductions and copies of the originals or the originals themselves will still be subject to chromatic and tonal distortions due to age and emulsion type, not to mention the vagaries of photographic processing.

Seen that the green on the cowling of AD233 matches the green on the fuselage, we have only two viable options: either 1) the cowling and ailerons are in DG/OG while the rest of the airframe is DG/Mixed Grey, or 2) the airframe is in a rather dark and greysh looking Dark Green with a very olive looking Dark Earth and the cowling is in Dark Earth (it matches the "supposed" DE on the fuselage exactly, after all) and Ocean Grey, together with the flaps. Dark Earth and Ocean Grey would be a novel combination indeed.

It goes without saying that 1) would be more logical.

Equally, the Dark Green on P7882 is an exact match for the Dark Green on P7926, and it seems fairly obvious that the former is in a standard Day Fighter Scheme.

Additionally, if the aircraft were in Temperate Land Scheme (a notion disproved by the Ocean Grey on P7882) because of their supposed role as trainers, not only the Sky fuselage band and yellow wing leading edges would have been removed, but the lower surfaces should have been repainted in yellow, which is obviously not the case.

The notion that P7926 might be in Temperate Sea Scheme would also ignore the fact that the Dark Green on P7882 matches the green areas on P7882, and again the TSS would not require these aircraft to bear a Sky fuselage band or yellow wing leading edges.

Once again, logic would indicate a Mixed Grey.

Given as true that no period photographs can offer totally accurate colour reproduction, the arguments above are based on matching colours and hues within the photographs themselves.

F.

[Steven Eisenman]

I can and I can see mauve!

[Nick Millman]

I have vivid memories of being torn to shreds for misinterpreting a photo of Lightnings, and it appears that I am unique in my inability to spot a duff published copy of a photo. Therefore, I'll leave this tread with this compilation of two published prints from the same IWM source. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I firmly believe that one of them can't be trusted to be an accurate portrayal, and, before the "Well, anyone can tell that........" comments start, the green/sand version comes from a book written by Douglas Bader, and no-one found fault with the book, when it was published.

Edgar, as a matter of interest and not having seen it what does the original print suggest the colours are? I notice in the two scans even the codes are different colours!

Your post well illustrates the problem and the futility of arguing about online colour images. I have seen endless online images, scanned, copied, compressed, transmitted and even photo-shopped, "proving" that the under surfaces of US export aircraft for the RAF were "gray", whereas the original transparencies and photographic prints of the same images (which often require the investment of time and/or money to obtain or view in unadulterated form) invariably show duck egg blue/sky variants.