Red arrows mid air collision

[jenko]

Sometimes I think we forget just how close these guys fly. This really brings it home how little room for manoeuvre there is when they are in formation. Planes can be replaced not pilots. It could have been a lot worse thank god it wasn't. Lets hope the pilot is back where he belongs (in the air) as soon as possible.

Dick

[CockneyCol]

Serious case of Ouch..at least all are safe if a bit battered.

I think a case of get well soon and well done for presence of mind - how many of you could land an aircraft after that, don't think I could.

Cheers

Col'

[SPerx]

My 2p. Disband them and spend the money on the front line. Seeing they have all but turned off recruitment at the mo they don't need them. The MoD is bankrupt and we need to channel the money where it's needed i.e. here at the sharp end. I'm out here sweating my balls off trying to do my best with limited resources with no flex, it's just not good enough. I wish I could I could tell you the details of why but it makes my blood boil and trust me, I know what I'm talking about.

I know most of the team and one of my mates is the current CO so I have a personal interest in the accident. I'm glad they are all OK. But, in these times unfortunately some painful decisions need to be made.

Like cancel Trident upgrade / replacement?

Or Cancel the two flat-tops for which we do not have a surface fleet to protect them and a junk F35 over weight; over budget and overdue?

Or stop pratting around fighting illegal wars - and I totally accept that the illegality is not the servicemens' fault - which do nothing for our security here at home.

[SPerx]

Interesting that only the front part of the canopy was jettisoned/blown. Is that normal? Presumebly one crew member only.

Glad the Arrows pilots are okay.

Graham

I assume that with the rear seat made safe the MDCs in the rear canopy would not fire, hence the intact rear section.

[Shaun]

Not much left but a hole in ground of the other jet!!

Amazing how quick photo's from the hospital got on the internet and there good quility as well, must have a been a press photographer?

Shaun.

[GrahamS]

I assume that with the rear seat made safe the MDCs in the rear canopy would not fire, hence the intact rear section.

I always assumed that the whole canopy would go even if there was only one crew member. Just shows how much I know.

Would I be right in saying then that if the guy in the back bails out and the guy in the front decides to stay that the forward part of the canopy would stay intact?

Graham

[SPerx]

I always assumed that the whole canopy would go even if there was only one crew member. Just shows how much I know.

Would I be right in saying then that if the guy in the back bails out and the guy in the front decides to stay that the forward part of the canopy would stay intact?

Graham

That depends on how the command ejection system is set. When they carry an untrained passenger the pilot & therefore aircraft captain can select whether or not he gets ejected if the passenger ejects. There was an incident back in the late 80s/early 90s when a fighter controller on a pax trip in a 100 Sqn Hawk ejected leaving a bemused and startled fighter ace flying all alone.

I believe Tornado has command ejection too. It needs a techie / pilot with Hawk experience to confirm exactly what the command ejection options are - certainly when I had a pax trip from Valley I was told that if I went it would not eject the pilot - I was back seat as non-aircrew.

Edited March 23, 2010 by SPerx

[Shaun]

I believe Tornado has command ejection too.

It has, but I don't know the current rules.

Many years ago a navagator ejected both crew members after he was working head down and when he looked out he thought they were going to crash so pulled the loud handle and out they went!

A review of the command ejection settings were put in place after this incident.

Shaun.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Shaun

[Pete T]

That depends on how the command ejection system is set.

Not so. The MDC is an integral part of each seats ejection sequence so without the seat being activated either by manual or command means the canopy would remain in situ.

[chadders]

Like cancel Trident upgrade / replacement?

Or Cancel the two flat-tops for which we do not have a surface fleet to protect them and a junk F35 over weight; over budget and overdue?

Or stop pratting around fighting illegal wars - and I totally accept that the illegality is not the servicemens' fault - which do nothing for our security here at home.

here here

[ferny]

Do Hawks really cost £5 million or is that just the Daily Mail trying to scare its readership as normal?

[Fmk.6john]

What pi**es me off is that the news at ten on BBC1 has just started and in the 'sensational' preview of the headlines the presenter clearly stated that 'two red arrows planes crash after mid air collision', are they really on the same planet that we live on??????.

And to think that I have a legal obligation to pay these idiots money!!!!!!

JB.

[PHIL B]

and one incident where a Hawk ran into a yacht mast. The engine must have been breathing water at the time ...

I saw that Brighton,1980 if memory serves

Yup. The yacht had moved into an area which was supposed to be clear. IIRC the Hawk was at about 50ft at the time. Synchro's minimum height was raised to 100ft afterwards.

Phil.

[SPerx]

It has, but I don't know the current rules.

Many years ago a navagator ejected both crew members after he was working head down and when he looked out he thought they were going to crash so pulled the loud handle and out they went!

A review of the command ejection settings were put in place after this incident.

Shaun.

Yep - twice. I used to work, on a ground tour at RAFC Cranwell, with the Nav who had punched himself and then Sqn Ldr Pablo Mason ( he with a handle-bar moustache) out of a Tornado not long after GW1. The episode you describe is covered on the UKSerials.com "losses" section which states that the pilot reacted to an A-10 "bounce" but unfortunately the Nav had been head-down and looked up to see the ground and no horizon, and so punched them both out - un-necessarily as it happened but understanderbly as the pilot had not said anything about the bounce...........

Edited March 23, 2010 by SPerx

[Haggis]

Command ejection;

Hawk. As a trainer the command eject selection can be switched on or off from the rear cockpit. If on, the rear seat occupant will eject both pilots, the front seat will only eject himself (not good if the inexperienced student pulls both out if not required). When off, the ejection is individual. This is the configuration when flown solo.

Tornado. As a front line jet, the command eject system is different. When off again the ejection will be individual. However, when on, only the front seat will be able to pull both out. Reason being the bloke in the back won't necessarily be able to see everything that's going on.

[SPerx]

Command ejection;

Tornado. As a front line jet, the command eject system is different. When off again the ejection will be individual. However, when on, only the front seat will be able to pull both out. Reason being the bloke in the back won't necessarily be able to see everything that's going on.

Is that a modification since the two incidents, when Tornado Navs punched both occupants out, which Shaun and I mentioned?

[smeds]

Interesting that only the front part of the canopy was jettisoned/blown. Is that normal? Presumebly one crew member only.

Glad the Arrows pilots are okay.

Graham

The Hawk has what they call Command Ejection. This means a selector in the rear cockpit can be used to select ejection sequence, both crew, or one crew member, front will be ejected first if both selected, the Reds usually fly solo, hence the rear cockpit canopy remaining intact.

smeds

[Troffa]

I understood that the command eject selector in the rear of the F-3 when selected to "both" would initiate both seats whomever pulled the firing handle- I'm not sure if there was still a sequencing of seat firing to ensure adequate seperation of the seats from each other during the ejection.

[SPerx]

I understood that the command eject selector in the rear of the F-3 when selected to "both" would initiate both seats whomever pulled the firing handle- I'm not sure if there was still a sequencing of seat firing to ensure adequate seperation of the seats from each other during the ejection.

I don't think temporal sequencing was ever used - if you think about it, even a few tenths of a second can be the difference between life and death. As I understand it the seats are designed so that their trajectories on leaving the aircraft diverge. On the Buccaneer that was achieved by a slight off-perpendicular mounting of the seats. On later seats with rocket packs the thrust vector as the rockets burn is controlled so that the seats diverge.

[Pete T]

I understood that the command eject selector in the rear of the F-3 when selected to "both" would initiate both seats whomever pulled the firing handle

Correct mate set to 'both' they both go, and if memory serves me right its the 'initiator' of the ejection who goes first followed by the 'passenger' approximately .5 of a second later.

I bet it makes your eyes water if your not ready!

I don't think temporal sequencing was ever used

There is good video of the time delay between seats firing on Youtube.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Pete T

[Troffa]

Thanks for the responses chaps, heres a link to Pablo Mason's crash where his nav banged them out..

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/00E4A3B8-1D...376_10may91.pdf

[Jazzy Jase]

Pablo Mason has the greatest moustache ever!

Edited March 24, 2010 by Jazzy Jase

[Shaun]

Thanks for the responses chaps, heres a link to Pablo Mason's crash where his nav banged them out..

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/00E4A3B8-1D...376_10may91.pdf

Have you read Pablo's account of this incident in his book

For those intrested, the pilots have been named

MOD press release

Edited March 24, 2010 by Shaun

[jenko]

Pictures of the crash are now on the BBC news website. Sorry don't know how to do link.

Dick

[zipper]

video of the crash has been released

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8586114.stm