Coastal Command Libs?

[Stuflyer]

Hi All, I have been asked to build a model of Liberator 3, FK223/t of 120 squadron the day this happened : http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/war-air/17925...ary-1943-a.html

- A very good friend of mine's grandfather was the second pilot on that mission. i have googled like mad, does anyone have, or know where I can find more information on this aircraft? I only have until May. ( I was poing to use the Hase kit as a starting point...)Many thanks for ANY info :-)

[rossm]

A few links for you......

RAF Liberator squadrons

RAF Coastal Liberator standards

B-24D interior photos - the GR.III was similar to the B-24D

My Coastal Command camouflage page - can't guarantee it's right but it's a "best guess".

I'm building a GR.V (again B-24D based) in 1/72 using the Academy kit and a mate is doing the same in 1/48th so feel free to ask any questions you like. The best reference I've found is the Aerodata booklet Link to abebooks search results which has detailed plans for RAF Liberators and gives lots of useful detail that I didn't know. Also a Link to a copy on fleabay.

The big change is the Boulton-Paul rear turret, identical to the Halifax rear turret. There's one in this Pavla conversion but I don't know if you need the other bits for a GR.III - almost certainly not the radar and I'm vague on the Leigh light as I'm at work at the moment. I'm using radar and Leigh light for my GR.V. Sudden thought is you may not need a rear turret at all if it was a VLR (Very Long Range) aircraft - mid uppers could also be left off depending on spec. The aircraft used over Biscay (based Beaulieu, Predannack, St.Eval) where they might meet Ju88C's kept all their guns but aircraft operating in mid-Atlantic (based Aldergrove, Limavady) such an encounter was unlikely so guns (and turrets) were often removed. I don't know if my references will give the answer but I'll see if I can glean anything about the configuration of FK223. The crew list with 3x WOP/AGs suggests not all guns were removed but maybe not all (mid-upper, beam and tail) were carried. Carefully reading the report reveals the rear gunner fired at the sub so a rear turret must have been fitted (although earlier Libs had open rear gun positions I don't think this was an option for the III).

As for the kit I went for the Academy (now Minicraft and also released by Italeri) because I felt the nose assembly of the Hasegawa one gave me too much room to get it misaligned. However you do get more detail in the Hasegawa one and the engines & cowling of the Academy/Minicraft/Italeri one are not quite right (but who's going to notice when looking at a beast that size?). I only gave the Hasegawa kit a brief inspection but I'm not sure if it had the RAF style entry door under the rear fuselage or the USAAF gun hatch - I seem to remember whichever it was had a joint line through it as it was part of the fuselage mouldings whereas Academy give separate and optional parts for either. As you're going to want to use an entry ladder to stop it tailsitting that's a useful point.

Good luck,

Ross

Edited March 15, 2010 by rossm

[AWFK10]

There's a photo of some 120 Sqn Liberator IIIs, taken in April 1943, in Martin Bowman's Crowood book on the Liberator - it's also appeared in at least one other that he's written. There are at least 8 aircraft visible: the ones in the foreground are FK228/M and FL933/O. They both lack an upper turret and have yagi aerials (ASV Mk 3?) fitted under each outboard wing and in the top centre of the nose glazing, as well as two rows of 4 small aerials on the fuselage side, running forward from the beam window and aligned just above and below its edges. FK228 has its individual letter repeated just aft of the nose window; FL933 hasn't. The third aircraft has a chin radome, making it a GR V.

[rossm]

There's a photo of some 120 Sqn Liberator IIIs, taken in April 1943, in Martin Bowman's Crowood book on the Liberator - it's also appeared in at least one other that he's written. There are at least 8 aircraft visible: the ones in the foreground are FK228/M and FL933/O. They both lack an upper turret and have yagi aerials (ASV Mk 3?) fitted under each outboard wing and in the top centre of the nose glazing, as well as two rows of 4 small aerials on the fuselage side, running forward from the beam window and aligned just above and below its edges. FK228 has its individual letter repeated just aft of the nose window; FL933 hasn't. The third aircraft has a chin radome, making it a GR V.

That's one of the photos I wanted to check when I get home - if FK223 had the Yagi aerials they are available in etched brass from Paragon or Aeroclub,

Ross

[Stuflyer]

Fantastic info, thanks chaps. I shall see if I can get the book. I may get the crowood one too (always good to have an excuse for buying books...) You lads are amazing..thank you. I'll keep you posted as I go :-) I have dug up a couple of pictures and profiles myself..

http://www.ulsteraviationsociety.org/#/coa...-ww2/4537284196

http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/b/327/9/0#15

Neither of these are 223 but they are a starting point, many thanks again guys :-)

[Antoine]

we will also release the Liberator GR.Mk.V and GR.Mk.VI in 1/72nd scale, which will be ex-Minicraft molds with Eduard conversion parts

Quote from Eduard's january newsletter.

But there's no release date, and if you got to have it finished by may...

[AWFK10]

Just found a copy of the photo I was referring to on eBay (3 copies, to be exact):

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AA1-B-24-RAF-Liberat...C-/360225393460

Still worth seeing if you can find the book, though - I don't see why I should be the only one who gets into trouble for buying too many of them! There's also a profile, here, which seems a good match for the photo.

http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/b/327/9/0/15

[RAF Liberators]

Hi there

You do know that Corgi released a 1/72 120 Squadron Lib?

If you look around you can still get a conversion kit for the old Monogram 1/48.

As for info on 120 Squadron your best bet would be to post a request on the forums Peter our resident 120 Squadron expert will be able to provide you any specific info you need.

I have the Aerodata book and it's quite good, you'll probably find most of the photos on the site anyway but happy to help

Cheers

Gary

[rossm]

A bit more searching hasn't turned up much new except that FK223 seems to have been a lucky aircraft, also sinking U-954 on 19/5/43, U-643 jointly with FL954 on 8/10/43 and U-361 on 17/7/44.

Ross

[Francis Macnaughton]

Having now had a chance to look at the Aerodata book on early liberators mentioned in an earlier post, I can see that it does justice to the Liberator III/B24D version but I vaugely remember another book which had 1/72nd drawings of the even earlier LB30/liberator I and II versions which I am keen to get my hands on. Can anyone help with title and author by any chance please?

Thanks for any help

[Test Graham]

They may well have had the British twin mg mounting in the waist. An excellent book is from Air Britain, The Liberator in RAF and Commonwealth Service, which covers all the different variants, internal details, and individual aircraft histories. Lots of photos, including a full page print of the famous Aldergrove one, and a colour profile of FK224/J of 120 Sq.

[rossm]

Having now had a chance to look at the Aerodata book on early liberators mentioned in an earlier post, I can see that it does justice to the Liberator III/B24D version but I vaugely remember another book which had 1/72nd drawings of the even earlier LB30/liberator I and II versions which I am keen to get my hands on. Can anyone help with title and author by any chance please?

Thanks for any help

Aircraft of the Fighting Powers vol2 by Owen Thetford has plans of the Liberator I. You may be able to make one of these in 1/72 with the help of the Magna civil Liberator conversion and some elbow grease!?!?!?

Ross

[Fernando]

[i'm building a GR.V (again B-24D based) in 1/72 using the Academy kit and a mate is doing the same in 1/48th so feel free to ask any questions you like.

The big change is the Boulton-Paul rear turret, identical to the Halifax rear turret. There's one in this Pavla conversion

Hi, Ross,

Both Liberator III and GR.V need the Bolton Paul turret? The Aerodata 11 indicates that Libs III had it, IIIA were American planes leased "as is", indicating especifically standard twin .50s, and then goes on the GR.V, seemingly implying the American turrets were kept. There is also a profile of a GR.V from a Canadian squadron, 10 (BR), depicted with the twin .50s.

Fernando, somewhere in Haiti

[Ken]

Hi All, I have been asked to build a model of Liberator 3, FK223/t of 120 squadron the day this happened : http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/war-air/17925...ary-1943-a.html

- A very good friend of mine's grandfather was the second pilot on that mission. i have googled like mad, does anyone have, or know where I can find more information on this aircraft? I only have until May. ( I was poing to use the Hase kit as a starting point...)Many thanks for ANY info :-)

Probably the best book around is the Air-Britain publication on the Liberator in R.A.F. and Commonwealth service. It has 'oodles' of photos on C.C. Libs including the rocket installation in the rear bomb bay as well as a history of every individual a/c supplied. One thing to be aware of is that the Pavla conversion that has the stub wings included are for the trials aircraft and not those actually fitted. As to the B.P. rear turret, my advice is to use the Airfix Halifax rear turret and/or the Falcoln transparency. The other point to be aware of are the beam guns which were 2 x .303s mounted on a bracket which was controlled by the gunner sitting to one side and also the window itself which differed from aircraft to aircraft amongst other things

Ken

[rossm]

[i'm building a GR.V (again B-24D based) in 1/72 using the Academy kit and a mate is doing the same in 1/48th so feel free to ask any questions you like.

The big change is the Boulton-Paul rear turret, identical to the Halifax rear turret. There's one in this Pavla conversion

Hi, Ross,

Both Liberator III and GR.V need the Bolton Paul turret? The Aerodata 11 indicates that Libs III had it, IIIA were American planes leased "as is", indicating especifically standard twin .50s, and then goes on the GR.V, seemingly implying the American turrets were kept. There is also a profile of a GR.V from a Canadian squadron, 10 (BR), depicted with the twin .50s.

Fernando, somewhere in Haiti

I've yet to see a photo of a UK based GRIII or V with a US rear turret. That's not to say they didn't exist but there was a modification program for all Liberators delivered to be converted to Coastal Command standards by Scottish Aviation in Prestwick. That suggests they would all have been the same on the squadrons,

Ross

[Test Graham]

The AB book has one picture (I've found) of a Mk.III with the US turret, but that is a trainer still in US colours and a B. It does seem that the B variants more commonly kept the US turrets, whereas the GR had the BP - although some later GR VIs also had the US turret. The AB book has a profile of a Canadian GR Mk.V, a 311 Sq GR Mk.V and an 86 Sq crew trainer GR Mk.III with the US turret - but the last is one of 11 special "Battle of the Atlantic" transfers from the USAAF. All the aircraft shown in the FK serial range have the BP turret.

[rossm]

The AB book has one picture (I've found) of a Mk.III with the US turret, but that is a trainer still in US colours and a B. It does seem that the B variants more commonly kept the US turrets, whereas the GR had the BP - although some later GR VIs also had the US turret. The AB book has a profile of a Canadian GR Mk.V, a 311 Sq GR Mk.V and an 86 Sq crew trainer GR Mk.III with the US turret - but the last is one of 11 special "Battle of the Atlantic" transfers from the USAAF. All the aircraft shown in the FK serial range have the BP turret.

I've got the AB book at home - never thought to look at the profiles, just scanned the photos and only Coastal ones then. I'll check, or maybe you can, if the 311 example went through SAL ? Obviously the Canadian one is unlikely to have done so.

My current puzzle, which I hope to solve with lead foil, is making the ammo feed for the nose gun and then to make and fit the empty cartridge collecting tray without damaging the transparency it needs to be mounted on. The Pavla chin fairing is also not a straightforward thing to fit,

Ross

[Test Graham]

The 311 Sq example is BZ741, PP.Q, which did go through SAL. The RCAF example is 600 N "Nannette" ex BZ755, and did not, being delivered direct to Gander.

A number of the BZxxx aircraft have no tail turret, just a rounded tail like the early hand-held variant. There is more variation in these Liberators than I'd noticed before! Still comparatively early, of course.

[Seahawk]

The AB book has one picture (I've found) of a Mk.III with the US turret, but that is a trainer still in US colours and a B. It does seem that the B variants more commonly kept the US turrets, whereas the GR had the BP - although some later GR VIs also had the US turret. The AB book has a profile of a Canadian GR Mk.V, a 311 Sq GR Mk.V and an 86 Sq crew trainer GR Mk.III with the US turret - but the last is one of 11 special "Battle of the Atlantic" transfers from the USAAF. All the aircraft shown in the FK serial range have the BP turret.

Which all invites the question for me of why Coastal Command replaced 0.50 tail turrets with 0.303s. By the end of the war Bomber Command were belatedly replacing 0.303 turrets with 0.50s, so why, at a time when these aircraft were desperately needed, did Coastal Command go to the trouble (manpower, delay) of downgrading their Liberators' tail defences?

Sorry if this is a bit O/T.

Nick

[Test Graham]

When the initial decision was made, for the LB.30/Liberator Mk.II, the alternative to a powered 4-gun rear turret was a hand-held gun. Does that make more sense? Even later on, it is not clear to me that all examples were returreted, as opposed to being built for the British turret and never fitted with the US one. This certainly appears to be true for Mk.III/Vs.

At the time, and indeed for some years afterwards, there was considerable discussion in "gunner" circles whether four smaller guns were better than two larger ones. Not everyone at the time would have agreed that going from a US turret with 2 guns to a proven British one with four was downgrading. In this context, at least some of the US turrets were regarded as inferior to the British ones in speed and accuracy of movement: I don't know whether this applied to the ones in the Liberator's tail or not.

Another reason could have been shortage of spares for the US turret.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Graham Boak