Hunter Tailpipes/cones

[Gene K]

I've just gone through numerous posts on MUG, Hyperscale, etc that addressed long/short wide/narrow tailpipes/housings. Most posts went back to 2005 with, as usual, Bill Clark having a strong voice. So...has this "issue" ever been resolved? If so, could someone point me in the right direction to get The Answer?

Also, Hyperscale forum mentioned tail drawings wings by John Adams (since removed from the thread) - does anyone have a copy of these drawings? Or does anyone have a copy of the Echelon Vacuform sheet shown here

Thanks,

Gene K

[Edgar]

I have both sheets, from the single-seat Echelon kit, since I worked, with Frank Brown, on the instructions, and built, at least, 12 of the kits. The marks 1-5 had the same diameter exhaust (.63", 16mm in 1/32nd scale;) the 6 had a larger exhaust (.765", 19.4mm,) and the 6A & FGA9 had the parachute housing, with the same size orifice as the 6. The sheets are A2 size, and impossible, for me, to scan.

Since all of the RAF's two-seaters were converted 4s, they only had the smaller exhaust, even if they had a parachute housing. Some (if not all) export two-seaters had the larger exhaust. The only two-seater, in the U.K., with the large exhaust, was the sole Mk.12.

Edgar

[AnonymousAA72]

I have both sheets, from the single-seat Echelon kit, since I worked, with Frank Brown, on the instructions, and built, at least, 12 of the kits. The marks 1-5 had the same diameter exhaust (.63", 16mm in 1/32nd scale;) the 6 had a larger exhaust (.765", 19.4mm,) and the 6A & FGA9 had the parachute housing, with the same size orifice as the 6. The sheets are A2 size, and impossible, for me, to scan.

Since all of the RAF's two-seaters were converted 4s, they only had the smaller exhaust, even if they had a parachute housing. Some (if not all) export two-seaters had the larger exhaust. The only two-seater, in the U.K., with the large exhaust, was the sole Mk.12.

Edgar

What he said Gene!!! Incidentally I have the T7 in the stash as well.................

[Dave Fleming]

What Edgar doesn't merntion is apoint finally cleared up by Steve Murray on HS couple of years back. The actual jet pipe diameter was the same. The later versions had a shorter rear fuselage/jet pipe housing than the mks 1 - 5, which caused the larger diameter (as it lost the sharp upslope on the last few inches of the tail pipe)

[Gene K]

What Edgar doesn't mention is a point finally cleared up by Steve Murray on HS couple of years back. The actual jet pipe diameter was the same. The later versions had a shorter rear fuselage/jet pipe housing than the mks 1 - 5, which caused the larger diameter (as it lost the sharp upslope on the last few inches of the tail pipe)

Dave,

I enjoyed reading your and Bill's old posts regarding the Hunter rear end (and Steve Murray's explanation), but it seemed like the conclusion was "hanging", in particular as concerns the 4inch reduction/addition to the tail fairing length. One of the last MUG entries hinted that Bill was going to do some more measuring. Based on Edgar's comments, I guess that's not necessary.

So is there a definitive set of Hunter plans showing, in particular, the correct variant profiles?

Gene K

[Edgar]

I've never seen any; Frank's, in the Echelon kit, are, probably, the closest. Al Trendle was given a duff set, which explains the errors, in the Academy kits (the same thing happened with the Spitfires.)

Edgar

[AnonymousAA72]

Been a bit quiet lately, sitting at home brooding...leg's sore...went into the loft (don't tell Mrs Clarkeeboy!!), took out one of Frank Brown's masterpieces...namely the 1/32 Hunter T7..................

The kit's fuselage is a one piece tooling, with the "100-series Avon" (you all know the one..the narrow bored version - albeit with the para housing on). It also has parts for a "200-series Avon" rear-end, for some export Tadpoles and of course the unique T12 - again with Para-fairing, so infact, identical to that on the FGA9.......

Anyway took out a tape measure and a camera..and hey preson north end........

They are IDENTICAL in length..i.e. 3.2cm (which is handy in 1/32nd scale I'm reasoning......)

I also took the opportunity to measure my WIB Revell F6, and the same area is slightly longer - only by a mm or so.

I also took time out to have a look at the constituent parts of John Adams' 1/48th single seater detail set and guess what??? ALL parts, be they for the F4, The F6 or the FGA9 are exactly the same length (ignoring of course the latter's para housing.)

Rocket science it ain't, but in lieu of me getting my back-side over to Kemble it's all I can offer at the moment.

BUT, IF Frank B., and John A., ARE correct in their measurements it dispells Steve Murray's "HS theory" of a couple of years back...Namely "The later versions had a shorter rear fuselage/jet pipe housing than the mks 1 - 5, which caused the larger diameter (as it lost the sharp upslope on the last few inches of the tail pipe)".

My theory was then, and is now, that the 200 series Avon tail pipe was LONGER and therefore the aperture had to be increased to avoid the tail pipe hitting the fuselage (BUT I wouldn't bet on it............not yet anyway!!!!!)

So, Gene to answer your original query ......Dunno!!!!!

[Gene K]

Been a bit quiet lately, sitting at home brooding...leg's sore...went into the loft

Boy would I love to see that loft!!

Very interesting measurements/analysis on the tailcones. I thought, being a Hunter novice, that I had the four different tailcones figured out - wrong...after seeing that first picture (narrow with para housing).

Any chance you could post some pictures of the tailpieces in the Aeroclub conversion (Boy would I like to find that one!!).

Thanks for the continued effort, Bill.

Gene K

[Edgar]

You know, the only way that this will, ever, be resolved, is with the old, faithful, tape measure. Complete, small-exhaust, Hunters are a bit hin on the ground, but, according to the current Wrecks & Relics., the following are still around:- Henlow, Mk.1; Waterbeach, Mk.2; Great Dunmow, Mk.5; Fleet Hargate, Mk.1; Greenford, Mk.1; Manchester IWM, Mk.1; Newark, Mk.1; Tangmere, Mk.5; Dumfries & Galloway Museum, Mk.4; Inverness Airport, Mk.1; Caernarfon Aerodrome, Mk.1; Kenfig Hill, Mk.1. There are some ex-Denmark F.51s, which should be the equivalent to a 4:- Farnborough, Lasham, Norwich, Sunderland, Brooklands, Charlwood (Gatwick,) Midland Air Museum, Kidderminster, and Sealand. None of them are within easy reach, for me, and it's somewhat annoying to think back to when there were 4s, 6s, and 6As, readily available at Halton, but we always assumed that the fuselage was a standard length, and never considered that they might differ. If anyone fancies doing any of these, and needs further details, I can furnish them, and I'm sure that there'll be a lot of grateful U.K. modellers

Edgar

[AnonymousAA72]

Complete, small-exhaust, Hunters are a bit hin on the ground, but, according to the current Wrecks & Relics., the

following are still around:- Henlow, Mk.1; Waterbeach, Mk.2; Great Dunmow, Mk.5; Fleet Hargate, Mk.1; Greenford, Mk.1; Manchester IWM, Mk.1; Newark, Mk.1; Tangmere, Mk.5; Dumfries & Galloway Museum, Mk.4; Inverness Airport, Mk.1; Caernarfon Aerodrome, Mk.1; Kenfig Hill, Mk.1. There are some ex-Denmark F.51s, which should be the equivalent to a 4:- Farnborough, Lasham, Norwich, Sunderland, Brooklands, Charlwood (Gatwick,) Midland Air Museum, Kidderminster, and Sealand. None of them are within easy reach, for me, and it's somewhat annoying to think back to when there were 4s, 6s, and 6As, readily available at Halton, but we always assumed that the fuselage was a standard length, and never considered that they might differ. If anyone fancies doing any of these, and needs further details, I can furnish them, and I'm sure that there'll be a lot of grateful U.K. modellers

Edgar

Agreed Edgar,Its time to sort thi sout once and for all!!! All we need a tape measure and volunteer...I had hoped to start by measuring the tail end of the T8M at Yeovilton a year or so ago, but never managed to finish -and luckily there are still a few GA11's around.....AND other assorted T-birds. So..the 100-series SHOULDN'T be a problem. Likewise we aren't short of FGA9's or F6A's (or F58's!!) so those shouldn't cause a problem either. I will be visiting Kemble this year, and I will have a tape measure, camera and tape measure with me!!

Boy would I love to see that loft!!

Very interesting measurements/analysis on the tailcones. I thought, being a Hunter novice, that I had the four different tailcones figured out - wrong...after seeing that first picture (narrow with para housing).

Any chance you could post some pictures of the tailpieces in the Aeroclub conversion (Boy would I like to find that one!!).

Thanks for the continued effort, Bill.

Gene K

Yes, I'll sort those pic's out later......watch this space!

[Mike]

Sealand is only a few miles from Chester... The Hunter used to be on display somewhere round Aerospace, and there's a Vampire or Venon salted away in there somewhere too. I've not seen it for a long time though. Perhaps we should send Cop on his Motorbike after going off duty one day & ask him to commandeer the Hunter for a tape measuring festival?

[1POB]

Alreet Chaps.

I am happy to do my bit, easiest for me are:

T.7 XL569 at East Midlands

FGA.9 XE624 at a private location (I can ask about this, hopefully the owner will give me permission)

F.1 WT651 at the Newark Air Museum

I know this sounds anal (maybe this is project manager in me!) but should we define exactly which dimensions we should measure. Does anyone have a suitable diagram we could use to show from which point to measure from (panel line, aperture etc etc).

I plan to take pictures of each jet pipe area as well!

Here is another Hunter question; I'd like to build either a T.8M or a Hunter T.8B and I realise both have modified cockpits, (SHAR and Bucc) however I have no references to show the modified layouts. Does anyone know where I might find such pictures (Short of contacting the FAA Museum and the Hunter Flying club)?

Cheers,

Ed

[Edgar]

There is a panel line, just aft of the tail bumper, which is, in fact, the front of the tailcone. It has quick-release fasteners, holding the tailcone in place. However, to forestall the more disbelieving, it might pay to take, as well, a second measurement from the transport joint covering band, which is just aft of the wing t/e (that never moved.) Cheeky, to ask, I know, but could you include the F.51, while you're at the Midland Air Museum? I've no idea if it might help, but, if you tell them it's for a project, in which I'm involved, you might strike lucky. I built the Echelon Mk.5, which they have, on display, in the Museum.

Edgar

[Dave Fleming]

Some interesting posts:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/message/1117816756/

makes sense if the F6 is shorter/wider

And Steve's much quoted post:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/mess...ealed+inside%21

The only Hunters in Scotland (at oposite ends of the country) are early mks (a 1 and a 4)

[Dave Fleming]

Been a bit quiet lately, sitting at home brooding...leg's sore...went into the loft (don't tell Mrs Clarkeeboy!!), took out one of Frank Brown's masterpieces...namely the 1/32 Hunter T7..................

The kit's fuselage is a one piece tooling, with the "100-series Avon" (you all know the one..the narrow bored version - albeit with the para housing on). It also has parts for a "200-series Avon" rear-end, for some export Tadpoles and of course the unique T12 - again with Para-fairing, so infact, identical to that on the FGA9.......

Anyway took out a tape measure and a camera..and hey preson north end........

Shape looks wrong there IMO -the lower plan line of the Hunter has a much 'sharper' up turn whereas the kit seems to have a gradual tapering over the length of the cone.

http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/hu...raydeacon01.jpg

Although interestingly the shape looks different on this one:

http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/hu...ll/hunt_007.jpg

John Adams mentions F4s fitted with F6 tailpipes on one of his posts, so beware!!

[Gene K]

Shape looks wrong there IMO -

That's the picture that got my interest also, but not because of the upsweep you mention, Dave. Rather, the side of the para housing appears to be a straight run rather than curved as on the other kit piece (the FGA.9 housing).

Gene K

[Andy Mullen]

<snip>

I know this sounds anal (maybe this is project manager in me!) but should we define exactly which dimensions we should measure. Does anyone have a suitable diagram we could use to show from which point to measure from (panel line, aperture etc etc).

<snip>

I just happen to be drawing up a profile for my Cold War GB MK6 Entry, based plans from SAM April 2004. Would this be of help

Edited December 24, 2007 by Andy Mullen

[1POB]

Andy,

Apologies, I forgot about this thread entirely. The drawing is great, just what is required! Thank you!

Ed

[AnonymousAA72]

Agreed Edgar,Its time to sort thi sout once and for all!!! All we need a tape measure and volunteer...I had hoped to start by measuring the tail end of the T8M at Yeovilton a year or so ago, but never managed to finish -and luckily there are still a few GA11's around.....AND other assorted T-birds. So..the 100-series SHOULDN'T be a problem. Likewise we aren't short of FGA9's or F6A's (or F58's!!) so those shouldn't cause a problem either. I will be visiting Kemble this year, and I will have a tape measure, camera and tape measure with me!!

Yes, I'll sort those pic's out later......watch this space!

Sorry for the delay......

[AnonymousAA72]

John Adams mentions F4s fitted with F6 tailpipes on one of his posts, so beware!!

I know I've said it before, but looking at pictures of earlier F6's (particularly those of the Black Arrows - with straight wings) and those of 19 Sqn, and comparing them with later F6's throws a sackful of spanners in the works....

Gods speed Ed!!!!!!

[Edgar]

Well, I tried; did F.A.S.T., at Farnborough, and Tangmere Museums, today, and someone's nicking Hunters. Tangmere's F.5 has disappeared, and Farnborough's F.51 has gone to Ireland (bit out of my reach.) Should have asked, first, I suppose, but at least no-one else will waste time on them. I did get a T.7, and I know where an F.6 should be, so there'll be some news, eventually.

(I hope not.)

Edgar

[Dave Fleming]

and someone's nicking Hunters. Tangmere's F.5 has disappeared, and Farnborough's F.51 has gone to Ireland

probably the MOD - the ETPS has taken a Hunter T bird on lease.

[Edgar]

Right; I've measured 4 Hunters, all different, a T.7, a T.8, an FGA.9, and an FR.10. I took three measurements: from the rear of the transport joint to the rear end; last, but one, panel line to the rear end; from the tail-cone joint to the rear end. In the same order, as above, they are :- 195.5", 53.25", 41.5" (T.7) 195.25", 53.5", 41.25" (T.8) 196.25", 54", 41.25" (FGA.9) 196.5", 54.25", 42.25" (FR.10.) Unless someone comes up with anything different, and remembering that Hunters were, virtually, hand-built, I'd say that it looks as though John Adams, and Frank Brown, were right.

Edgar

[AnonymousAA72]

Right; I've measured 4 Hunters, all different, a T.7, a T.8, an FGA.9, and an FR.10. I took three measurements: from the rear of the transport joint to the rear end; last, but one, panel line to the rear end; from the tail-cone joint to the rear end. In the same order, as above, they are :- 195.5", 53.25", 41.5" (T.7) 195.25", 53.5", 41.25" (T.8) 196.25", 54", 41.25" (FGA.9) 196.5", 54.25", 42.25" (FR.10.) Unless someone comes up with anything different, and remembering that Hunters were, virtually, hand-built, I'd say that it looks as though John Adams, and Frank Brown, were right.

Edgar

Well done Edgar, thats a very reassuring result!

[Dave Fleming]

Thanks Edgar,

Now if someone can measure an F1/F4 that will complete the set. (Must get to Dumfries one day).