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dr_gn

Matchbox 1/32 Bf109e

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Hi Garth,

Really looking forward to seeing you build this one, and with the history of that machine you've posted. This topic is well and truly 'bookmarked'!

Jim

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Hi Garth,

Really looking forward to seeing you build this one, and with the history of that machine you've posted. This topic is well and truly 'bookmarked'!

Jim

Cheers Jim,

Just to add, You can just about see a wing and the canopy in the background I think, and it definitely looks like an E-4 with the sharp edged canopy as per the kit.

Cheers,

Dr_GN.

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As I'm from Sheffield this procect looks interesting and I look forward to seeing your progress.

It would look great as a diorama on that crane being lifted into position.

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After a quick git of Googling, there are some more photos here:

http://asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/Bf-109E-JG5...16-1940-01.html

Caption for this one reads:

Bf-109E JG53.7 (W5+I) Schulte shot-down Manston Sep 16 1940 01

Photo 01: 6 September 1940, and the B109E-4 'White 5' of 7./JG53's Uffz. Hans-Georg Schulte lies abandoned on Vincents Farm to the north of RAF Manston. Flying with four other Bf-109s on a late afternoon freie ]agd over Dover, Schulte was attacked by fighters and his aircraft damaged. Although Schulte attempted to land on Manston airfield he overshot and his machine came to rest in a field. Note the old style Balkenkreuz.

http://asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/Bf-109E-JG5...ce-1940-01.html

Caption for this one reads:

Bf-109E JG53.7 (W5+I) $Uffz. Hans-Georg Schulte Poulmic-Brest, France 1940 01

Photo 01: A line-up of 7./JG53 aircraft, believed to have been photographed on the III. Gruppe Feldflugplatz at Poulmic-Brest between late July and mid-August 1940.The camouflage is the 02/70/71 scheme mentioned earlier and the Hakenkreuz on the fin of ' White 12' has been painted out and then, unusually, re-applied to the rudder. The pilots are, from left to right, Fw. Hermann Neuhoff, Uffz. Hans-Georg Schulte, Lt. Franz Gotz, Oblt. Heinz AltendoRG and unknown. 'White 5' in the line-up is the E-4 which Uffz. Schulte crash-landed near Manston aerodrome on the evening of 6 September.

A bit more info here, including some Flight Sim images:

http://asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/Bf-109E-JG5...I)-Schulte.html

Hope this helps!

Simon

Edited by Simon

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The flight sim pics do a reasonable job on their images of the plane (they use the swastkia for some reason)

246053896.jpg

RLM 71/02 overspray

There are conflicting stories on why Fat Herman ordered JG53 to paint out their Pik A's emblem, the other that floats around is JG53 considered themselves a elite unit and Fattso was trying to teach them a lesson. What is know is that at least 2 gruppe, 7/JG53 and 3/JG53 flew machines with it painted out till Nov 1940 when Fattso "forgave" the unit and allowed them to paint it back on.

Interesting bit is after that the swastkia was still painted out for a time after JG53 was allowed to paint the Pik A's emblem back on....I plan on doing one of these machines down the road

367667240.jpg

Great info Simon - I've been looking in books, didn't get round to Google yet! I did find this picture:

Umt2cVih.jpg

Definitely the right squadron (ace of spades). I wonder if it's the same aircraft? The white markings relative to the camo pattern look identical. I'm not sure if this is coincidence or not.

Pretty good bet its the same machine :P

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Well guys, that's pretty much all I'm going to need! Never thought there would be that much out there on this particular aircraft, and a flight sim model too!

Don, I understood the pilots painted out the swastika, and, as you said Goering ordered the ace of spades removing...I'm just wondering, if someone painted out the swastika, wouldn't that have been considered extremely...well, extreme? I'd have thought a pretty severe punishment would have been the result?

Cheers,

IIRR the commander of JG 53 got canned but on the pilot level there was no punishment that I know of.....would have been a major stink to punish that many pilots in the middle of a major air campaign.....

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Hi dr gn,

Boy that old Matchbox kit sure brings back some memories and despite what some people might say, it can be made into a very decent and accurate replica with careful work. As regards detailing in the engine area, if you can get hold of copies, both the Aero Detail and Cross & Scarborough book on the 109E which covers detailing the 24th Airfix 109 are useful reference sources. If there is anything particular that you need, feel free to drop me a line and I’ll do what I can to help.

Anyway, I hope that the following will be of use to you regarding Schulte’s E-4.

Excerpted from interrogation report:

6/9/40 Bf 109 White 5+, 7./JG 53, Unteroffizier Hans-Georg Schulte. Started at 17.30 hrs on a freelance patrol. This aircraft was flying with four others from the 7. Staffel at a height of 16,500 ft when it was shot down by fighters at 18.50 hrs. The pilot tried to land on Manston aerodrome.

Crashed Enemy Aircraft Report (verbatim):

Me 109. Crashed near Vincents Farm, Manston on 6/9 at 18.30hrs. Markings 5+I in white. White cowling, spinner and rudder. Camouflage mottled light and dark green and grey. Thick red band around cowling painted out. Aircraft constructed by Erla, work nr.1506 dated 1940. Fitted with DB 601/A engine. Mercedes Benz work nr.62611. Cause of crash uncertain. One wing buckled, otherwise condition of aircraft fair. Standard armament and bulkhead together with pilot’s head shield standard.

Mike Payne’s original notes on this a/c states:

Uffz.Hans-Georg Schulte. 7./JG53. W.Nr.1506. E-4. PoW. 18.30hrs, 6 September at Vincents Farm, north of Manston, Kent. White 5 and vertical bar with no outline colour but contrasting strongly with the heavy green and grey mottle. This was lighter under the cockpit. Cowling and rudder painted white with traces of a red cowling band showing through. Fuselage cross in usual position but of the older style with narrow white borders. Spinner all white.

Interestingly, neither report mentions the over-painted swastikas on the fin.

When working on the Jagdwaffe Battle of Britain series for Classic colours, we were able to read a subsequent report on the aircraft and, from a private collection in the UK, view some other unpublished photos of it and examine three surviving pieces on which areas of both 02 and 71 remain. With this and the information and photos that we already had along with the research by artist Tom Tullis, we were able to come up with what we believe to be a fairly accurate colour profile of how this particular E-4 looked when it came down (p.185 of Jagdwaffe, Battle of Britain Phase Two).

HTH

Dave

Edited by tango98

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Hi dr gn,

Glad I could help. As far as the camo & markings go I can send you that in a couple of days or just before you’re ready to paint. As for stencilling it would appear that most, except for the W.Nr. on the base of the fin, was over-painted but I’ll re-check my file and photos to see what, if any, remained visible.

Unless I’m much mistaken, the colour profile at http://asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/Bf-109E-JG5...I)-Schulte.html has been copied directly out of the Jagdwaffe book.

Cause of crash-landing was fighter action. Schulte was flying as a part of one of several Freijagd (free-hunt) sorties mounted by Luftwaffe fighters over the Thames Estuary during the early evening of 6 September and he may have been a victim of either No.1 or 303 Sqns who were flying in that area at the time. In the one close-up photo of the port side, some bullet strikes are visible aft of the cockpit and it is my guess that it may have been damage to the port radiator that caused the forced landing. I have not seen any statement regarding whether or not Schulte was wounded or injured in the subsequent forced-landing. The closest that you will get to finding out who claimed the victory would be to sift through the late afternoon combat reports for that day to find one where the details match.

Unfortunately I only have photocopies of the photos in the private collection which we were given to use as an aid to composing the profile. The head armour was fitted in the canopy but while protecting the pilot’s head and shoulders from behind it does not appear to have had the additional curved continuation section above the pilot’s head of the type later fitted as standard to 109F & G variants. One of the un-published views is one looking down into the cockpit which is clearly finished as per 109E standards in 02.

It was a standard E-4 for had it been fitted with a DB601/N or any other additional engine equipment that fact would have been included or noted in the intelligence report.

HTH

Cheers

Dave

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Don has it correct. Standard factory camouflage for the early 109Es was top surfaces 70 Black Green and 71 Dark Green with under surfaces in 65 Blue. In early 1940 the factory applied camouflage changed to 02 Grey and 71 Dark Green for upper surfaces but under surfaces remained in 65 Blue.

The colour 72 along with 73 was used as an upper camo colour for Luftwaffe maritime aircraft.

Cheers

Dave

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Could it have meant 02/70/72 all on the upper surfaces?

And 65 underneath?

Or is the notation order a standard way of showing where the colours went ie the last number were the undersides?

Cheers,

No, there is no standard for showing that. However, you can tell from the colour number as the lower surfaces were always 65 or 76 (or black).

Regards,

Jens

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Don, Dave, Jens,

Thanks for clearing that up.

Dave, further to my questions to you a few posts up (re camo layouts):

Do you have any idea why the 'ace of spades' is missing from this aircraft. I appreciate timings of changes aren't exact, and that some info might be ambiguous, but I understood the logo was reinstated, and then the swastika was obscured by the pilots. "White 5" doesn't have either an "ace of spades" logo, or a swastika. I think it was suggested that the logo perhaps wasn't re-applied by the pilots?

I'd like to include the logo somehow, even if it's heavily oversprayed. Would it have been under the red nose band, and extended slightly each side of it?

The picture of "White 5" (with the person lying down next to it) shows the logo, but no red band at that time, and no white nose. The red band on "White 5" in the squadron line up picture appears to show the band in about the same place as where the ace of spades was (again, no white nose at that time).

Why was the nose and tail subsequently painted white? Solely for identification purposes?

Cheers.

Ah, man after my own heart!

Always loved 'em.

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Hi again dr gn,

At present I’m in the midst of compiling a complete revision of my Bf 109E camouflage article which is currently featured on Lynn Ritger’s 109 Lair at http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/index1024.htm in the articles section. Excerpted below are two sections from that article as originally written. However, having recently come into possession of copies of German language documents about both JG 53 and yellow/white tactical markings, once translated, they may shed further light on these. I have had a quick look through the JG 53 material which seems to support that which I originally wrote. Undoubtedly Sod’s Law will come into effect once I have translated the document and throw a spanner in the works! :lol:

As for the second photo of a White 5 showing the application of the Pik As emblem earlier in the thread; although there are distinct similarities between photos of the aircraft I’ll have a good look at all photos that I have of White 5 and make an educated guess based on available information although my gut feeling is that they are one and the same aircraft in all three photos. Pity the fin isn’t clearly visible in the two pre-loss photos so we could see the W.Nr. for comparison. Interestingly in the one photo no pilot head armour is fitted but in another taken of the aircraft being removed from Vincents farm it is clearly visible.

JG 53

For a short period during the second half of 1940, all three Gruppen of JG 53, and only JG 53, displayed two distinct anomalies in their markings.

The first case concerns the replacement of the ‘Pik As’ emblem. According to RAF intelligence sources in Air Ministry Weekly Intelligence Summary No.60, the emblem was ordered removed by Hermann Göring and a red band applied in its place, stating that the unit was to become known as the ‘Red Ring Geschwader’. While there is some evidence to suggest that it may have stemmed from some personal antipathy on the part of Göring, or possibly from some ideological difference with the leadership of the Geschwader, the definitive reason for the order has yet to be determined with 100% certainty. In the past, several valid theories for this change have been examined in depth, but most have been subsequently disproven although one, containing some merit, submits that it may have been nothing more than a temporary identification feature. There was however one event which transpired at this time that may have been of some significance. During early August, at around the time of the appearance of these red bands, Göring replaced the majority of the Jagdwaffe Kommodore with younger men, although two units serving with Luftflotte 3, JG 27 and JG 53, retained their existing Kommodore until October. Then, after Oblt. Günther von Maltzahn had taken over command of JG 53 from Oblt. Hans-Jürgen von Cramon-Taubadel at the beginning of October, the ‘Pik As’ emblem began to reappear on the Geschwader aircraft in a somewhat newer and larger format than previously seen. As a matter of interest, the first recorded incident of a Bf 109E being brought down over England where the red band had replaced the ‘Pik As’ emblem occurred on 16 August. On that date the aircraft of Fw. Christian Hansen of the 2./JG 53 force landed at Godshill on the Isle of Wight and when examined was reported in Crashed Enemy Aircraft Report No.11 of 19 August 1940 as having a “red band around nose 6” wide”.

The second case, and one frequently recorded as a political gesture on the part of the Geschwader, occurred almost concurrently with the reintroduction of the ‘Pik As’ emblem. Many aircraft from the II and III Gruppen had the Hakenkreuz on their fins over painted with several pilots using these areas to display their individual Abschuss tallies rather than in the more usual location on the rudder. Although some aircraft of the Gruppen did re-apply the Hakenkreuz after a short period of time it was often placed on the rudder rather than in the usual position on the fin. The period of time that these anomalies with the Hakenkreuz covered is not known for certain but some aircraft of the III./JG 53 were photographically recorded as still without their Hakenkreuz in late November 1940

Yellow vs White tactical markings.

Although some references suggest that the change from yellow to white occurred at the end of August, it is evident from the contents of Crashed Enemy Aircraft Reports for the month of September that both colours were being used concurrently by different units during that time. As far as research to date has shown, it would appear that this use of white lasted only for a period of approximately three or four weeks and was seemingly confined in the main to units based within a small sector of occupied France. During the last week of August, the fighter units of Luftflotte 3 were placed under the control of Luftflotte 2 when the bomber units of the former were temporarily withdrawn from daylight operations in order to join the nightly attacks on centres of industry in the British Midlands. However, whether or not this was in any way connected with the use of the white tactical markings for the single and twin-engined fighter force remains a matter of speculation for the present.

Cheers

Dave

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That looks like something from the old Aircam(?) books.

Anyway, the scheme shown appears to be RLM70/RLM71 upper surfaces with the fuselage side being RLM02 (yes, the same as interior RLM02). Not an uncommon scheme if you ask me.

Regards,

Jens

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That looks like something from the old Aircam(?) books.

Anyway, the scheme shown appears to be RLM70/RLM71 upper surfaces with the fuselage side being RLM02 (yes, the same as interior RLM02). Not an uncommon scheme if you ask me.

Regards,

Jens

Jens,

Exactly right, "Aircam Aviation Series No.39 (Volume 1): Messerschmitt Bf109B,C,D,E in Luftwaffe and Foreign Service".

Cheers.

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