A Few Mustang Mk.i Questions

[ColFord]

Hi PT,

No empty cartridge and link chutes on the Mustang Mk.I. They had a large bin in the nose where the empty cartridges and links were dumped into. Twofold reason - firstly keeping some of the weight of that expended ammo on board for c of g reasons, but also more importantly you wouldn't want all that metal being ejected out of the aircraft's nose, right into the mouth of the underfuselage radiator!

There is a thread over on the reborn P-51 SIG on the nose gun installation which includes photos of the Mustang Mk.I nose armament, and it also includes a couple of links to an A-36 restoration project which includes photos as well (the A-36 installation is very similar - probably around 99% the same - to that in the Mk.I).

http://p51sig.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=96

HTH.

Regards,

[phat trev]

Thanks Col. I see your point. Did not think of that.

Signed upto p51sig last night so will take a look.

cheers

[dragonlanceHR]

Fascinating thread, don't know how I missed it.

If I could just summarize the most obvious errors of Accurate miniatures kits (as found here and on r.m.s.), please correct me if I'm wrong:

1. nose needs to be more slab-sided - all versions

2. P-51 needs a new, shallower and longer belly cooler with hinged intake

3. A-36 needs a new, shallower belly cooler with fixed intake

4. P-51 and A-36 need a new prop with narrower blades - P-39 or F4F prop works (or A-36 had a broader prop?)

5. P-51A needs a new prop anyhow because of the strange twist? Replacement from?

6. new "unboxed" wheel wells - all versions

I have a few of them in the stash but never really got to starting any Mustang kits.

[John Thompson]

1. nose needs to be more slab-sided - all versions

Absolutely - I'm glad you mentioned this! It's a detail that's visible in a lot of photos when the lighting is right, but there is no Allison P-51 variant in any scale that correctly captures this detail. Thank you!

John

[dragonlanceHR]

Yes, for me the hi-res photos of the restored A-36 we're quite a shock.

I bought a bunch of kits when AM went under 10 years ago, but I only built the Yak-1.

I always thought I only need to rob some Eduard P-39's of their 3-bladers to get really good early P-51's.

Vedran

[Troy Smith]

I've just gone through this thread again, as well as some searching  on Hyperscale, having picked up an ICM P-51A cheap.

 

I've  seen reference to two kinds of carb intakes,  but photos seem to show mostly the long kind,  though I've seen mention of a wide kind

 

this shot  does show a Mustang I,  the US before delivery ?

 

Looks to show many of the features discussed clearly.  The light coloured seat is of interest.  If you click the image it should enlarge.

 

this is a P-51?

 

long intake,  RAF camo, so taken over from British order?

The wing access hatches show up well.

 

 

the below (P-51A?)  looks to be wider in the middle?  This has a 4x0.50 cal wing? 

 

 

There are also some good underside shots of Mustang I up on airwar.ru 

some more as well here http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/mustang1.html

 

 

the bare  patches round the ejector ports are  of interest, as well as the radiator shape

 

 

So, I also noted a recommendation to use the ICM P-51A wing on the AM P-51B,  as it's really a  B wing? 

 and by the looks of it the AM P-51B wing is the same as their P-51  kit?  

I'm  going to  have  to do some more  searching, which I can't do right  now.

 

 

 

 

 

[TBC]

15 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

I've just gone through this thread again, as well as some searching  on Hyperscale, having picked up an ICM P-51A cheap.

 

I've  seen reference to two kinds of carb intakes,  but photos seem to show mostly the long kind,  though I've seen mention of a wide kind

 

this shot  does show a Mustang I,  the US before delivery ? I don't know where this shot was actually taken but it is a Mustang I. It could very well be in the USA waiting for a check flight. I believe this to be AG-348, the 4th production Mustang I. It has the short carb intake plus fairings for the chin-mounted .50's ( both are early features), but no guns installed. There are photos of AG-348 with the later long carb intake and the chin fairings removed. The seat is unpainted aluminum.

 

 

Looks to show many of the features discussed clearly.  The light coloured seat is of interest.  If you click the image it should enlarge.

 

this is a P-51? Not a P-51 but another Mustang I in U.S. markings out for a test flight/photo shoot probably.

 

 

long intake,  RAF camo, so taken over from British order?

The wing access hatches show up well.

Below is either a repossessed RAF Mustang IA or a USAAF P-51(no suffix!) - 4 X 20mm cannon. It is no doubt painted Olive Drab upper surfaces and Neutral Grey lower. Tac Recce USAAF P-51's were designated F-6A's.

 

 

the below (P-51A?)  looks to be wider in the middle?  This has a 4x0.50 cal wing? Yup. A P-51A with 2 .50's in each wing and the wider style carb intake of this variant. USAAF Tac Recce P-51A's were designated F-6B's.

 

 

 

So, I also noted a recommendation to use the ICM P-51A wing on the AM P-51B,  as it's really a  B wing? 

 and by the looks of it the AM P-51B wing is the same as their P-51  kit?  

I'm  going to  have  to do some more  searching, which I can't do right  now.

I can't help you with regards to the ICM kits as I only have the Accurate Miniature ones.

 

Quote

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2017 by TBC

[gingerbob]

Yes, initially the intake started back from the spinner, as that shot on the ground shows.  Same was true for the P-40D.  Then, after the first few Mustangs, it was extended forward, but still "straight".  The wider look, as shown by the aerial shot with US stars, introduced an optional filter- put it in or don't put it in.  This came with the NA-83 (second batch of Mustang Is).  I can't remember whether this was still the one for the A-36, but the P-51A (-5?) introduced a different system that allowed bypassing of the filter- same or similar intake shape, but with a door on the top, which you can just see (the dark area) on your P-51A shot.

 

Your ICM P-51A may have the straight intake (don't remember)- if so, it is wrong.  The P-51A also had a shallower radiator fairing, which the Accurate Miniatures kit (and no doubt ICM) failed to represent, except (as I recall) for a different intake lip, but that doesn't really do the job.  The main thing with the wings is that the B had external stiffeners in front of the aileron- Acc Min left those off, but I don't know about ICM's wing.

 

The cockpit also had some changes from one model to the next, if you worry about such things.

 

bob

[Troy Smith]

10 hours ago, TBC said:

 

I can't help you with regards to the ICM kits as I only have the Accurate Miniature ones.

 

OK, I  hope  this does not seem petty, but first you "quoted"  all my post,  if you edit you can take out all the pics.(which are not needed in the quote unless you are making  a  specific comment)

Any info on the AM kits variation between boxings would be useful,  but this is not a very helpful post as it is.

 

 

5 hours ago, gingerbob said:

Yes, initially the intake started back from the spinner, as that shot on the ground shows.  Same was true for the P-40D.  Then, after the first few Mustangs, it was extended forward, but still "straight".  The wider look, as shown by the aerial shot with US stars, introduced an optional filter- put it in or don't put it in.  This came with the NA-83 (second batch of Mustang Is).  I can't remember whether this was still the one for the A-36, but the P-51A (-5?) introduced a different system that allowed bypassing of the filter- same or similar intake shape, but with a door on the top, which you can just see (the dark area) on your P-51A shot.

 

Your ICM P-51A may have the straight intake (don't remember)- if so, it is wrong. 

The P-51A also had a shallower radiator fairing, which the Accurate Miniatures kit (and no doubt ICM) failed to represent, except (as I recall) for a different intake lip, but that doesn't really do the job. 

The main thing with the wings is that the B had external stiffeners in front of the aileron- Acc Min left those off, but I don't know about ICM's wing.

 

The cockpit also had some changes from one model to the next, if you worry about such things.

 

bob

cheers bob

 

The ICM P-51A intake has the straight sides.

 

So, the is the early radiator intake at the rear than the later types ,  and it's not just the different intake at  the front? 

They look a similar  depth, but again I'll need to  go image hunting for comparison shots.

As an aside I got the P-51 Modellers Datafile,  and it's bad on 'understanding the subject'  as even on basic read.

 

The ICM P-51A has the external stiffeners,  the AM P-51B doesn't.

 

more  research later, I need to dig out my AM A-36  kit as well.

 

cheers

T

[TBC]

55 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

 

OK, I  hope  this does not seem petty, but first you "quoted"  all my post,  if you edit you can take out all the pics.(which are not needed in the quote unless you are making  a  specific comment)

Any info on the AM kits variation between boxings would be useful,  but this is not a very helpful post as it is.

It doesn't seem petty at all, and actually makes it easier to read now that I've removed the pics. I should have thought of this initially. What info are you looking for specifically and I'll see if I can be useful?

55 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

 

 

cheers bob

 

 

 

[ColFord]

Ah, Zombie Thread on early Mustangs revived.

 

Okay Troy, here we go.

 

First photo, is of one of the first two production Mustang Mk.Is, in the original AG serials, photographed at NAA before delivery.  Has the short original ‘narrow’ intake above the cowling.  From early flight testing of the production examples, issues with the efficiency of the intake at high angles of attack were identified and so the intake was extended to just behind the propeller, which solved that problem.  Note also, original gun camera position out on the port wing outer section, and original tubular ejector exhausts. NAA factory pattern camo.

 

Photo 2, Mustang Mk.I retained in the USA for trials and development use by NAA, a few photos of this one around, including a couple of colour ones.  As it was used for trials and testing of proposed production modifications for later Allison engined Mustangs, it became a bit of a ‘bitzer’, with aspects of later AM, AL and AP series Mustang Mk.Is showing up in some photos.  In this instance, has the later slightly broader, but still relatively narrow air intake as fitted to the AM, AL and AP series Mustang Mk.I and also to the Mustang Mk.IA/P-51.  Note too in this one, the antenna wires going from mid fuselage to the tail planes - you can just see the wires and insulators.  NAA factory pattern camo.

 

Photo 3, P-51/Mustang Mk.IA, this one from memory I think was one also retained for trials use with NAA, hence why it looks a bit used and abused.  Has the US style 20m installation with the external recoil springs ahead of the wing leading edge fairing.  If you compare the air intake shape on photo 2 and photo 3, you will see they are basically the same.

 

Photo 4, P-51A, Mustang Mk.II.  From memory this is one from a training unit in the USA - see light coloured band around nose.  Well worn, well used and abused.  This has the later much wider nose air intake fitted to the A-36 and the P-51A.  This had a larger filter unit, and in that dark patch about mid way on the intake trunking, is a door that could be opened on the ground when taxiing, to take in potentially cleaner air - useful if a number of aircraft were operating off a very dusty or sandy strip.  The intake on the A-36 and the P-51A were largely the same, key difference being the addition of the door on the top of the scoop to take in supposedly cleaner air at the top of the cowling.

 

Photo 5, AG series Mustang Mk.I - I suspect this photo has been retouched by censor as position of the gun camera on port wing has been ‘erased’  and area where serial would appear on rear fuselage appears obscured - dark patch.  Note for the AG series Mustang Mk.I, has the radiator intake air deflector plate in front of the radiator intake, which was deleted from later Mustang Mk.I and Mustang Mk.IA.  Also pre-RAF operational armament modifications, in that it still has the ‘cheek’ cowls around the nose guns and no change to under-wing ejector ports.  Early style markings and dark propeller spinner, so still in original NAA applied C&M.

 

Photo 6, AM serial Mustang Mk.I.  AM148, RM-G No.26 Sqdn RAF, later repaint/modification into RAF C&M mid to late 1942 but pre November 1942.  Note radiator intake air deflector is gone, gun camera port on port wing gone - camera now mounted in nose between the nose guns, hidden  in the shadow would be a circular camera ‘window’.  The shiny metal around the underwing armament ejector ports would be as a result of the RAF in service modifications to the armament.  This included ‘beefing’ up the internal wing mounting arrangements and replacement of the original NAA ejection chutes, which were a mix of shaped rubber and metal components, with RAF designed and manufactured all metal chutes.  Had different internal dimensions and more curved shape to overcome ejection chute blockages and ’stove piping’ of ejected cases.  The cowls have also been removed from the nose guns - another recommended RAF in service modification to assist gun cooling and operation.  Also note has original RAF HF long wire antenna and insulator fitted and the early style tubular exhausts.

 

And my AM and ICM P-51 kits of various flavours are currently buried at the bottom of my stash ‘leaning tower of kit boxes’ so unable to get at them at present to compare.

 

However, the ICM P-51A kit as it comes, is a bit of a mash-up of features.  It has the narrow earlier ‘straight sided’ type air intake above the nose as for a early Mustang Mk.I.  The wing is also more like a P-51B/C wing in that it has the external stiffeners in front of the ailerons which the Allison Mustangs did not have.  Also has the B/C type stiffener in the wing centre section in front of the radiator intake, not the more ‘rounder’ type as on the earlier Allison Mustangs.  So what they have done is tried to get the maximum number of potential uses out of what mouldings they produced.  I have some and I’ve used them for components for conversions or basis for conversions to other sub-types.

None of the current 1/48th kits, AM or ICM really have the proper shape for the radiator intake area and ‘bath/dog house’ for the Mustang Mk.I or Mustang Mk.IA.  Still waiting for a good mainstream manufacturer to really do the early Allison Mustang justice in 1/48th or 1/72nd.

 

Also, don’t know when it will hit here, but all the photos I have posted earlier in this thread and the other early Mustang ones are linked back to my P——Bucket account and they are apparently changing their arrangements and it is impacting photos posted in threads to a number of websites as they consider it ‘third party hosting’.  So view them whilst you can, as it will take me some time to transfer all my photos to another photo hosting site and then re-edit my posts to remove the old photo links with new one.

 

HTH.

 

 

Edited July 30, 2017 by ColFord
Typo.

[Fossil]

Bit out of left field here but re' the four P51's used by 225 squadron in N. Africa: Any idea in which role they were used & if used for photo recc' would I be correct in assuming the RAF camera was retro fitted or could it be the a/c were F6's and the squadron used them "as borrowed"?

[ColFord]

Fossil, the information available from various sources is that they were USAAF specification P-51/F-6 aircraft, fitted to carry a vertical camera in the rear fuselage between the radiator outlet and tail wheel bay, and were primarily used for vertical photography.  This was the NAA developed modification to the type, not the RAF developed one. The Squadron's Spitfire Vbs being fitted with an oblique camera and used for the oblique photography role.  So main changes externally would be the change to RAF roundels in place of the USAAF stars, addition of the Squadron and individual aircraft codes and the modification to the camouflage - more likely addition of a second colour to the USAAF standard olive drab upper surfaces to provide the disruptive scheme.

 

And I note that P----Bucket has finally caught up with me and all my photos in this and the other relevant threads are now replaced by their ransomeware image.

NOTE 10 July 2017 - have gone back to earlier posts I have made in this thread and re-added the technical documentation extracts and photos.  Will add photos of models later.

 

Regards.

Edited July 10, 2017 by ColFord
Update on photos

[Fossil]

Thank you for that info' Col, not to mention all the previous questions from others you have taken the time to reply to.

My curiosity re' these aircraft was raised a while ago,thanks to this topic and researching a bit of my late father's 225 Squadron history.

Dad was an airframe fitter with 225 and would often sit and talk to me when I was 12, 13 sticking Airfix kits together. He'd talk about the Lysanders, Spits, Hurricanes and Mustangs, Scotland, France, North Africa, Italy etc. I remember we had a photo of a Mustang with WU squadron letters on it flying over typical Brit' countryside, or is that part of a Fossil's memory playing tricks?

Enough of the family history, question time sir: I have obtained an AM P51 (North Africa box) which I intend to build soon. I have procured the Model Alliance decals, some better looking cannons from Master, Seat belts from Eduard a vacuform canopy and trebled the original purchase price of the kit! Your suggestion on further "improvements" would be appreciated

Question 2: Is the colour scheme of WU B as depicted in the IPMS digram accurate?

Regards,

Alan

[ColFord]

Hi Alan,

 

Re 225 Squadron and a photo of a Mustang with WU codes over Britain, the Squadron had equipped like most of the other Army Co-operation Command Squadrons with Mustangs in mid-1942, in that case Mustang Mk.1 aircraft.  So a photo from that timeframe whilst they were equipped with the Mustang Mk.I, they were still in the UK, and before ACC dropped the use of the Squadron code letters on their aircraft in late 1942, gives a very narrow 'window' and a photo that would be fairly rare.  That was before they moved to the Middle East in late 1942/early 1943 and were re-equipped with initially with Hurricanes and Spitfires. 

 

Improvements, Ultracast early Mustang seat with harness 48014, Ultracast flared/fishtail exhausts 48070 or 48071, Ultracast early narrow prop blades 48243, and don't forget to add the armour plate behind the pilot's seat, the kit does not include it.  (Red Roo carry a range of Ultracast items in Oz, otherwise I've had no problems ordering direct from Ultracast in Canada).

 

Re the colour scheme 'IPMS diagram' by that do you mean the IPMS artwork done some years back by Rick Kent?  More recent research and evidence points more towards the aircraft being finished in the original USAAF Olive Drab over Neutral Gray, with a disruptive pattern, possibly in RAF Middle Stone applied over the top.  Not the full repaint into standard RAF Desert colours as hypothesised and portrayed in profile illustrations in the past.  Code letters, either pale sky blue or white, no definitive answer on that point.

 

Regards.

 

 

[Fossil]

Thanks again Col',

 

Regards,

Alan

[dragonlanceHR]

For the ultimate impovement for the AM kit check out http://www.geocities.jp/yoyuso/p51a/p51a-1.html

Browse at your own peril!

 

@ ColFord

 

Thank you for the most exhaustive writeup.

 

 

There was talk on BM about a definitive soon-to-be-released book on RAF Allison Mustangs - any info on that, gents?

 

Vedran

[ColFord]

The earlier questions on differences between the early Allison Mustangs used by the RAF, primarily the Mustang Mk.I, Mustang Mk.IA and Mustang Mk.II, prompted me to go back over some of the technical manuals for the early Mustangs to try and find a couple of diagrams that might help illustrate some of the differences.

 

Mustang Mk.I - representative of early AG series.  Note on the port wing the wing tip assembly, the opening for the gun camera and the servicing hatch in the top of that assembly for the gun camera - to get access to the camera and film magazine.  On the subsequent batches of Mustang Mk.Is - AL, AM and AP, the gun camera moved to a location under the nose of the aircraft, between the 'cheek' guns and the opening and hatch in the port wingtip assembly was deleted.

 

Mustang Mk1 Major Assembly by Colin Ford, on Flickr

 

Mustang Mk.IA - representative of all the FD series

 

P51 Mustang Mk1A Major Assembly by Colin Ford, on Flickr

 

In these two diagrams above, in particular note the components of the underslung radiator assembly, including the two forward parts which included the movable intake ramp.

 

Mustang Mk.II - representative of all the FR series, with the option of replacing the framed canopy with the Malcolm Hood assembly.

 

A36 P51A Mustang Major Assembly by Colin Ford, on Flickr

 

Again, note differences in the underslung radiator assembly, especially the radiator intake assembly.

 

Illustration of the inside of the carburettor intake trunking that forms to top of the engine cowling on the Mustang Mk.I and Mk.IA.

 

Mustang Mk1 Upper Cowling by Colin Ford, on Flickr

 

Note the basic straight sided shape of the internal trunking, which was reflected in the exterior shape of the cowling.

 

Diagram of the P-51A intake trunking and filter arrangement, which was the same as that on the A-36, which included the addition of the filter assembly and the mid-intake opening.  It was the addition of this filter, the opening and associated mechanical controls that required the change in the intake trunking shape to that with the 'bulge' about mid way along the top of the cowl, along with the location for the mid-intake opening.

 

P51A Air Scoop & Filter by Colin Ford, on Flickr

 

Lastly diagram from the P-51A E&M manual, showing the parts numbers for the cowlings around the engine and front fuselage of the P-51A/Mustang Mk.II.  Note how all the cowling numbers, except those for the top cowling incorporating the carburettor air intake and the two 'cheek' panels which had the removal of the 'cheek' guns from the Mustang Mk.I, all have '73' prefix numbers, which relate to the original NA-73 designation for the first batch of Mustang Mk.Is. So the design of those panels has not changed from that of the original production batch of Mustangs.   The top panel has an 83 series prefix, whilst the two cheek panels have a 91 series prefix, indicating changes from the later Mustang Mk.I and Mk.IA series aircraft.

 

P51A Engine Panels by Colin Ford, on Flickr

 

Lastly, "The Book" is coming, a little more patience is required, but it is getting close to finalisation and publication.

 

Hope the above is of interest to those who have followed this thread.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2017 by ColFord

[gingerbob]

Colin, you've skipped a stage- intake with fixed (removable) filter.  NA-83 through (?) A-36A.

[ColFord]

Gingerbob,

 

There is nothing in the Pilot's Notes/Manuals, Erection & Maintenance Manuals or Parts Lists on an air filter in the carburettor air intake trunking before the A-36 or P-51A.  If there was the addition of a fixed (removable) filter, in the NA-83 or NA91 series, it also does not show up in the list of modifications incorporated into the versions of the documentation that I have.  I'll have a look through the list of RAF Mods and NAA TOs covering the mods that may not have been picked up in the primary documentation to see if I can find a reference.

 

(Update - on checking RAF list of Modifications by type, only modification listed for the Mk.1 and Mk.1A is for improvements to the ice guard for the carburettor intake.  Update 2 - checking further documentation the addition of a filter to what could be a similar basic carburettor air intake design running from the NA-83, thru the NA-91 to the A-36 is highly probable.  Interesting thing is that the Maintenance Manuals NA-83 & NA-91 do not cover the requirement to inspect and change a filter - if fitted - before what is contained in the A-36 Maintenance Manual.  Ditto the earlier manuals do not cover or show the baffle which is replaced by the filter if fitted in the parts diagrams.  So certainly (pardon the unintended pun) baffling and worthy of further digging.)

 

Diagram of the carburettor air intake for the A-36 shown below. Note, does not have the top intake door as on the P-51A intake.

 

A36 Air Duct Diagram by Colin Ford, on Flickr

 

 

Edited July 30, 2017 by ColFord
Addition, update

[k5054nz]

Apologies if this has been covered but I've only skimmed as I'm on my phone and could only see reference to the 1/48 kits.

 

What is the most accurate option OOB, shape-wise and especially around the leading edge wing root, for a gun-armed Allison P-51 (not RAF Mustang) in 1/72? So far I've found Academy, Frog, High Planes, Italeri and MPM.

 

I'd like to build this A recently completed by Pacific Fighters in the markings of an XP-51, which competed at the Reno air races last week and I am now in love with:

Quote

Totally goregous,

These are from John Muszala II's Facebook page. 

Edited September 22, 2017 by k5054nz

[Ratch]

Interesting thread. Lots of info on operational Mustangs, but what about the ones flown by the Air Fighting Development Unit while stationed at RAF Wittering?

I have the Italeri 1:72 (090) kit, that I'm led to believe is a Mk.IA and that FD442 was flown from Wittering. Additional information is most welcome.

[Work In Progress]

You already have a thread running on this? 

 

[Ratch]

51 minutes ago, Work In Progress said:

You already have a thread running on this? 

 

That's a Group Build thread. I was directed to this thread for information.

[ColFord]

It's an old thread, but the basics of my reply then, apply now.

 

Just to add that Page was flying Mustang Mk.I AM107 - apparently also repainted ina scheme similar to the one Maclachlan had on his Mustang Mk.IA FD442.