A Few Mustang Mk.i Questions

[Wez]

So going back to my earlier question - does that mean that a Mustang I can't be built from the Academy 1/72nd scale kit regardless of what modifications you make to the armament because the radiator intake is the totally wrong shape or, because it lacks the moveable intake ramp (which is surely just a matter of plasticard and scribing)?

Is the Accurate Miniatures Mustang I just that? An accurate miniature of a Mustang I?

Wez

[Wez]

Hi Colin,

I'm curious why you (apparently consistently) refer to this unit in this way. Are you talking about "Number 2 Squadron RAF" or something else? I'm not trying to be, well, anything but curious.

bob

Bob,

He is talking about Number 2 Squadron RAF, he refers to it that way because pretty much that's the way the Squadron has always referred to itself (and still does), No.II (Roman numerals notice) was formed as an Army Co-Operation Squadron - hence the AC, originally most of the RAF Squadrons had a designator after their numbers such as F - Fighter, B - Bomber and of course AC.

Most RAF Squadrons hold on to that historical lineage because - well they can.

Does this explain?

Wez

[Mentalguru]

So going back to my earlier question - does that mean that a Mustang I can't be built from the Academy 1/72nd scale kit regardless of what modifications you make to the armament because the radiator intake is the totally wrong shape or, because it lacks the moveable intake ramp (which is surely just a matter of plasticard and scribing)?

Is the Accurate Miniatures Mustang I just that? An accurate miniature of a Mustang I?

Wez

Wez- it is not yet possible to do a Mustang 1 from the combination of Acc. Min. kit, (plus) any and every aftermarket set you can think of.

The tail is too tall on the Acc. Min. kit, the canopy is not good, and the radiator bath assembly is just absolutely totally incorrect.

You could try this-

Acc. Min. kit-

+ every applicable set you can think of from that Canadian Bunch that I can't think of their name.

+ Aires P-51B wheelbay (even this may not be totally accurate- but it will be close-ish)

+Canopy from Tamiya P-51B, or better, the vac alternative

+ rescribe entire wing with info that I'm not sure is actually available in accurate 1/48 plans.

+ prop, spinner and forward nose subtle modifications.

+ all the small fine details that make a Mustang Mk1 a Mustang 1.

It's the reason I haven't done it yet- it's the one RAF aircraft I really really want to do properly

[ColFord]

Bob,

As Wez says, that is the way that particular Squadron is correctly titled. If someone refers to them as No.2 Squadron RAF, it's like referring to them as the 2nd Fighter Squadron of the RAF. In all the official documentation, their squadron history, even on the Squadron Standard, they are No.II(AC) Squadron RAF. I am referring to the Squadron therefore by what is its correct title and what is their historically correct title for that time. Just a bit of pedantry, but also I don't want to upset one of my close friends who was OC of the Squadron and who would proverbially "have my guts for garters" if I referred to "his Squadron" incorrectly.

The AM kits in 1/48th do have issues in regards to their accuracy of outline and detail. However, they are the best and only solution out there. A passable facsimile of an Allison engined Mustang can be made with them if you do some corrections and are prepared to accept some compromises on accuracy. To do a Mk.I from the Mk.IA kit does take a fair bit of effort, particularly in relation to the armament and wing modifications. As the inner main gear doors on the Allison Mustangs are normally closed on the ground, it is easier to get away with the issues about the rear 'wall' of the undercarriage bays compared to the other Marks. I've built a number of the AM 1/48th Allison Mustangs, made the more essential modifications, particularly those that differentiate the RAF aircraft from the US variants AM provide in their mouldings, utilised Tamiya or vacform canopies, various Ultracast bits, and been happy with the results.

Special Hobby did a Mustang Mk.I in 1/72nd scale, in looking around a few reviews can be found:

http://kits.kitreview.com/mustangi72reviewgp_1.htm

http://arcmodeler.com/Gal9/8701-8800/gal87...-51-AEX/00.shtm

Wez,

If you are looking for a subject from one of those Squadrons at Odiham, for a particular timeframe and a particular nationality of pilot, if you can state your preferences I will see what I can either point you towards by way of publicly available sources or what I may have in my own archives/collection.

For more on Mustang Mk.IAs, you can also see here:

http://www.clubhyper.com/eyesoftheinvasioncf_1.htm

The model in that article has been since corrected.

[Wez]

Wez- it is not yet possible to do a Mustang 1 from the combination of Acc. Min. kit, (plus) any and every aftermarket set you can think of.

The tail is too tall on the Acc. Min. kit, the canopy is not good, and the radiator bath assembly is just absolutely totally incorrect.

You could try this-

Acc. Min. kit-

+ every applicable set you can think of from that Canadian Bunch that I can't think of their name.

+ Aires P-51B wheelbay (even this may not be totally accurate- but it will be close-ish)

+Canopy from Tamiya P-51B, or better, the vac alternative

+ rescribe entire wing with info that I'm not sure is actually available in accurate 1/48 plans.

+ prop, spinner and forward nose subtle modifications.

+ all the small fine details that make a Mustang Mk1 a Mustang 1.

It's the reason I haven't done it yet- it's the one RAF aircraft I really really want to do properly

In the words of my 16 year old - "Boo dat!"

Oh well, better of sticking to 1/72nd then!

Wez

[mike romeo]

Well I am going to go ahead and do this conversion as I looks to be correct enough for this scale, with a bit of butchery of course. Many thanks for everyones imput! it's been very informative.

Trev,

Good attitude, in my opinion. Go ahead and I look forward to admiring it when its finished!

regards,

Martin

[Wez]

Wez,

If you are looking for a subject from one of those Squadrons at Odiham, for a particular timeframe and a particular nationality of pilot, if you can state your preferences I will see what I can either point you towards by way of publicly available sources or what I may have in my own archives/collection.

For more on Mustang Mk.IAs, you can also see here:

http://www.clubhyper.com/eyesoftheinvasioncf_1.htm

The model in that article has been since corrected.

Colin,

Thanks for the link, I'd already looked at that and bookmarked that page

For ease I'd like to do a IA although I'm happy to make any changes required for a II.

I'm also happy to make either a II(AC) or 268 Sqn aircraft - it's really the link with Odiham I'm interested in so any pointers to that end would be really helpful, as long as the photo is clear enough to pick out the serial number, code letter and colour scheme of the aircraft that's all I need.

Thanks

Wez

[Terry McGrady]

I've tried to follow this but I get a bit lost (its my age dontcherknow)!

Can anybody summarise for me which RAF Mustangs I could build from the Academy Allison Mustang kit if I (1) retained the original armament as per the kit, or (2), modified the wings to a machine gunned version?

Wez

Hi Wez

You could do the Cannon armed IA or the M/C gun armed MKI . To do the MKII as Mental says you need to alter the Carb Intake on the top of the engine as the intake on the MKII was broader. The radiator shape was also different on the MKII.

Cheers

Terry

[Terry McGrady]

In the words of my 16 year old - "Boo dat!"

Oh well, better of sticking to 1/72nd then!

Wez

Wez

Despite what Mental says you can do a Mustang MKI from the Accurate Minatures KIt . Ultracast doing a mustang MKI conversion set fot the Accurate Minatures P51 kit

Cheers

Terry

[Wez]

Hi Wez

You could do the Cannon armed IA or the M/C gun armed MKI . To do the MKII as Mental says you need to alter the Carb Intake on the top of the engine as the intake on the MKII was broader. The radiator shape was also different on the MKII.

Cheers

Terry

Terry,

Thanks for the gen - I'm happy with a IA provided I can find one that flew out of Odiham, as Colin has said, 268 and II(AC) Sqns flew them out of there so it's just a matter of finding a decent photo of a suitable subject.

Regarding the Accurate Miniatures Mk.I - I don't have the kit, the question was really aimed at finding out whether it was worthwhile getting one but as it needs a conversion set at the least I'm not that bothered but thanks for letting me know.

These Tac Recce aircraft hold a certain fascination with me, it would be nice to do at least one Mustang and a Tomahawk in suitable markings.

Another question from me (sorry to Phat Trev for hijacking this thread but its been fascinating), does anybody have any information on the camera mounts?

Wez

Edited February 13, 2010 by Wez

[Terry McGrady]

The Tail is too tall on the Acc. Min. kit,?

Where do you get your measurements from ? What is the height of the Tail from the fuselage Datum Line ?

Cheers

Terry

[phat trev]

Trev,

Good attitude, in my opinion. Go ahead and I look forward to admiring it when its finished!

regards,

Martin

cheers Martin, just need to get hold of a very fine razor saw to take the nose and rad area off.

will display the the build in WIP sometime soon

[Terry McGrady]

cheers Martin, just need to get hold of a very fine razor saw to take the nose and rad area off.

will display the the build in WIP sometime soon

The main thing Trev is to enjoy what you are going to do . So what if its not 100% . No kits are anyway .I look forward to seeing the end result

Cheers

Terry McGrady

[Bruce Archer]

Mustang 1A, and a Mustang II with the P-51B style wing armament.

I must disagree with you on the types which can be modeled. The Mustang Ia and P-51/ F-6A were closely related to the Mustang I ( think of them as a Mustang I with 4 20mm cannon). The Mustang II/P-51A/F-6B had a different radiator opening (inlet), different air intake and a different prop. From the Academy kit you can do the P-51, F-6A and Mustang Ia.

Bruce

Edited February 13, 2010 by Bruce Archer

[ColFord]

Wez,

Okay lets work this through.

F.24 camera mounts in RAF Mustangs, online images go to the IWM website, to their photo collections search and the following images will provide some pointers:

H 28781 H 28782 CH 17415 CH 20403 CH 13455 C 3984

One of those is a top view of a Mk.IA of 35(Recce) Wing of which No.II(AC) Sqdn and No.268 Sqdn were both the Mk.IA users. Also for a photo of the Tomahawk camera installation CH 17187, similarly doing a search there on Tomahawk will bring up images that include some of ACC Sqdn Tomahawks in the UK.

The Mustang Mk.IAs were painted into a very standardised scheme after they were reassembled in the UK. They were received from NAA in the US in the temperate land scheme and national markings using the earlier A and A1 type roundels and fin flashes. So they were stripped and repainted using standard RAF paints in the Day Fighter Scheme with C and C1 type roundels and fin flashes.

The following is my own diagram of the camo pattern, overlaid over the AM instructions. This is the diagram I developed based on reference to original photographs of the real aircraft, not off someone else's previously published and inaccurate profiles.

MustangMk1ADiagram by Colin Ford, on Flickr

When 268 was at Odiham in 1943, when they first received the Mk.IAs, aircraft were in the standard scheme, with one major change. Someone got the yellow wing leading edge painting instructions wrong. They painted them from the wingtip to the wing root. Aircraft had the aircraft single id letter ahead of the fuselage roundel in sky, serial in night under the tail plane. By November 1943 the wing leading edge yellow id strip had been corrected so that it was only from wingtip to just outboard of the outboard cannon fairing.

Aircraft at that time were: FD507H, FD492 G, FD486 L, FD551 O, FD555 M, FD482 K, FD495 R, FD445 A, FD539 F FD475 C, FD440 P and FD533 G.

Aircraft when back at Odiham after D-Day in July-August 1944 were: FD541 T, FD502 R, FD488 D, FD480 G, FD474 K, FD562 C, FD561 O, FD477 R, FD476 B, FD562 C and not forgetting FD472 M. Aircraft at this stage only had the D-Day distinctive markings under the wings and under the rear fuselage.

There was nothing really distinctive from one aircraft to the next. Personal markings were very, very rare as aircraft were basically allocated to pilots on an availability basis, they did not have an aircraft that was normally "theirs", excepting the OC who had his preferred aircraft, but did use others. Aircraft were generally clean and well cared for. They were regularly cleaned, polished and maintained so as to keep a smooth airframe for maximum speed.

I refer back to the references I gave in an earlier post. The 2TAF volumes in particular have some good material.

Also if you go to Large Scale Planes, Works in Progress, Ironman 1945 is doing a really good build of converting the Hobbycraft Mk.IA to a Mk.I and has done some excellent work on the cockpit, camera and radio fit. Plus lots of other detail stuff.

http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?showtopic=23080

HTH,

Edited July 10, 2017 by ColFord
Re-add photo

[Wez]

Colin,

Many thanks for an extremely thorough reply and useful references. I must say Ironman's build on LSP is very impressive.

Thanks for the trouble you have taken to respond.

Wez

[ColFord]

And just to prove that you can build an RAF Allison Mustang in 1/48th scale using the AM kit, or in one instance the ICM P-51A with a bit of modelling skills, left over bits from other kits and decals from the stash..........

AllisonModels by Colin Ford, on Flickr

This was a contribution to a display of Mustangs at the ACT Scale Modellers Association show in May 2009 to co-incide with the launch of "Southern Cross Mustangs" by David Muir (if you are into RAAF or RNZAF Mustangs, this is THE book for you!!).

And still building more, I have about eight of the AM P-51/Mustang Mk.IA and P-51A kits still in stock with a build program to produce many more Allison Engined Mustangs in RAF service. Currently working on one in Operation Starkey Markings.

AND finally, the 1/72nd scale Mustangs to the right were built by Dick Hourigan (Google "Dick Hourigan Mustang" and you'll see!)

Edited July 11, 2017 by ColFord
Re-add photos

[ben_m]

Colin: a wonderful group shot. I have never heard of PRU blue or pink Mustangs, do you know what units they were with, or have any references?

[Terry McGrady]

And just to prove that you can build an RAF Allison Mustang in 1/48th scale using the AM kit, or in one instance the ICM P-51A with a bit of modelling skills, left over bits from other kits and decals from the stash..........

This was a contribution to a display of Mustangs at the ACT Scale Modellers Association show in May 2009 to co-incide with the launch of "Southern Cross Mustangs" by David Muir (if you are into RAAF or RNZAF Mustangs, this is THE book for you!!).

And still building more, I have about eight of the AM P-51/Mustang Mk.IA and P-51A kits still in stock with a build program to produce many more Allison Engined Mustangs in RAF service. Currently working on one in Operation Starkey Markings.

AND finally, the 1/72nd scale Mustangs to the right were built by Dick Hourigan (Google "Dick Hourigan Mustang" and you'll see!)

Excellent Builds Colin ,

Must admit I've a a dozen or so AM kits in the stash to do yet . At the moment however, fiddling about with the wings from the

ICM "Mustang II" and the Loon Fin Filleted P 51B/C resin conversion fuselage. Got enough spares to cobble a Model together,

As Ben says Do you have any further info on the Pink MKIII?

Cheers

Terry McGrady

[ColFord]

Hi All,

The PRU Blue Mustang is one of the aircraft used by No.541 Squadron in mid to late 1944. Primarily used for hunting V weapon sites in northern France, Belgium and the Netherlands. A couple of photos of the PRU Blue Mustangs have turned up and the aircraft serials have been identified from the Squadron records - don't have then to hand at the moment.

P2040192 by Colin Ford, on Flickr

P2040188 by Colin Ford, on Flickr

The PRU Pink 'dicer' Mustang is, "shock horror!!" the result of my threat to do a "what if" Mustang, if No.16 Squadron, who had previously flown Mustang Mk.Is, had kept Mustangs and in stead of having their PRU Pink Spitfire FR.IXs, had PRU Pink Mustang FR.IIIs. It always grabs attention. The aircraft id letter is 'Y' with a Pink Panther mascot with the motto "Y Not?". I built it just after doing a model of a No.16 Sqdn PRU Pink Spitfire FR.IX, the one coded 'X', so doing 'Y' was a simple progression.

PinkMustang16 by Colin Ford, on Flickr

I've also done another "what if" Mustang FR.III, but armed with the 4 x 20mm cannon armament of the Mk.IA and with oblique and vertical camera fit, in a 2TAF early 1945 c&m scheme.

P2050226 by Colin Ford, on Flickr

 

P2050231 by Colin Ford, on Flickr

 

And looking at the ICM P-51D and ICM Mustang II for a kitbash to create an Allison engined 'D' as another 'what if', but that one is low on the priority list to build. Have a few more serious and real projects ahead of it.

Edited July 29, 2017 by ColFord
Re-add photos

[gingerbob]

A few comments for the record: (and sure enough Colin slipped in a post just before I hit "GO!", but I'm not going to re-write.)

First of all, I'm very out of touch with 1/72, so I can't help with the original poster's specific questions (though he seems satisfied...)

Re lowering the wing with the Merlin, I asked for clarification over on the Mustang SIG, and it is pretty conclusively a 3" difference, per NAA statements and documents.

Re the Acc Min kits (1/48), if the vertical fin is too tall, it is virtually exactly as wrong as the Monogram B and the Tamiya D. It is curious (from the perspective of a Spit boffin) that when I've compared the "big picture" of kits from Acc Min, Monogram (B and D), and Tamiya, they all agree "near enough". Nothing like the variations you get when you compare Spitfire bits!

I did notice, however, that there was a difference in the position of the cockpit opening between the Acc Min and the Monogram B, the former being longer in the canopy section and the windscreen, and somewhat farther forward (while the distance between firewall and vertical fin match up very well. I don't know which is "righter", and I suspect some of the apparent difference might dwindle when the clear parts are installed.

Colin, nice group! Shouldn't you oughta do a Mustang IV/ RAAF Mustang, though? And just because you CAN build a kit doesn't make it morally right ...

Don't worry, I'm firmly of the opinion that:

1) you can do whatever pleases you (or even as close to that as one's skills make possible), and

2) the Acc Min kit is a heck of a lot better place to start than any of those other 1/48 Allison Mustang options!

I even stooped to buying a 32nd Hobbycraft IA- the thought of an Allison Mustang in 32nd was too appealing to let some "issues" get in the way. I'd love to see some aftermarket better bits for that kit, though. Hmm, I think I just found a name for my company...

I'd like to know about the pink one, too, though if I remember right it was you having some fun with artistic license?

bob

Edited February 15, 2010 by gingerbob

[gingerbob]

And looking at the ICM P-51D and ICM Mustang II for a kitbash to create an Allison engined 'D' as another 'what if', but that one is low on the priority list to build. Have a few more serious and real projects ahead of it.

As a matter of fact, there WAS an Allison D, but it was a postwar racer! Never knew about that one until recently. It didn't have the usual nose intake, though- instead it had an intake at the wing root.

I'm actually doing a cannon armed B right now, only it is an XP-51B, not a "What If?" Considering I don't have every last answer for the details, it'll be more of a "Wonder If?"- wonder if I got it right!

bob

Edited February 15, 2010 by gingerbob

[ColFord]

Mentalguru's comment in his post back at post #28 to this thread about the Accurate Miniatures 1/48th tail being too tall got me thinking.

So I pulled out my various Mustangs from various manufacturers of various marks, but all in 1/48th scale.

I measured at the same point on all, along the rudder hinge line, firstly using my trusty calipers and then secondly a really good metal ruler. So I took two measurements of each. The results were:

Tamiya P-51B/C, Mustang Mk.III & P-51D - 40mm

ICM P-51A/Mustang Mk.II, P-51B/C, P-51D - 40mm

Pegasus (Snap kit) P-51B/C - 40.5mm

Accurate Miniatures P-51/Mustang Mk.IA, P-51A/Mustang Mk.II - 41.0mm (couldn't get at my AM P-51B/C to measure, but potentially it should be the same as the other two from AM)

Now given the rudder remained the same throughout Mustang production from Mk.I to P-51D, that is in all the technical manuals the dimensions given and parts numbers are consistent, there should be no difference in the height of the rudder between these.

I have yet to do the conversions translating from 1:1 scale to 1:48 scale to see which comes out closest or most accurate given those measurements. Something to consider, certainly. But if the AM rudder is too tall, it would not take much to sand a little bit off both top and bottom edges, rescribe the rudder hinge line at top and bottom and be within a close scale tolerance of the real thing.

And Gingerbob, yes, there is artistic licence in most of what we do, it just depends on what type of licence you have!! Good work by the way over on the P51SIG on the fuselage height difference. I had not gotten to the stage of pulling out all the copies of the T&M Manuals for the various types to check the measurement information. Someone over there usually has the answer to hand. And I do have a couple of kits to one side to do one of No.3 RAAF Sqdns Mustang Mk.IIIs, one of their Mk.IVs, and one of the colourful RNZAF post-War Territorials schemes. Also have my Hobbycraft Mustangs in the stash. Waiting for the aftermarket guys to get cracking on the correction bits.

[Terry McGrady]

Hi Colin ,

Ah for a moment I thought that the Pink MkIII was something I'd not come across lol.

I knew about the 541 Squadron A/C . Still all adds to the fun.

Cheers

Terry

[Mentalguru]

Mentalguru's comment in his post back at post #28 to this thread about the Accurate Miniatures 1/48th tail being too tall got me thinking.

So I pulled out my various Mustangs from various manufacturers of various marks, but all in 1/48th scale.

I measured at the same point on all, along the rudder hinge line, firstly using my trusty calipers and then secondly a really good metal ruler. So I took two measurements of each. The results were:

Tamiya P-51B/C, Mustang Mk.III & P-51D - 40mm

ICM P-51A/Mustang Mk.II, P-51B/C, P-51D - 40mm

Pegasus (Snap kit) P-51B/C - 40.5mm

Accurate Miniatures P-51/Mustang Mk.IA, P-51A/Mustang Mk.II - 41.0mm (couldn't get at my AM P-51B/C to measure, but potentially it should be the same as the other two from AM)

Now given the rudder remained the same throughout Mustang production from Mk.I to P-51D, that is in all the technical manuals the dimensions given and parts numbers are consistent, there should be no difference in the height of the rudder between these.

I have yet to do the conversions translating from 1:1 scale to 1:48 scale to see which comes out closest or most accurate given those measurements. Something to consider, certainly. But if the AM rudder is too tall, it would not take much to sand a little bit off both top and bottom edges, rescribe the rudder hinge line at top and bottom and be within a close scale tolerance of the real thing.

And Gingerbob, yes, there is artistic licence in most of what we do, it just depends on what type of licence you have!! Good work by the way over on the P51SIG on the fuselage height difference. I had not gotten to the stage of pulling out all the copies of the T&M Manuals for the various types to check the measurement information. Someone over there usually has the answer to hand. And I do have a couple of kits to one side to do one of No.3 RAAF Sqdns Mustang Mk.IIIs, one of their Mk.IVs, and one of the colourful RNZAF post-War Territorials schemes. Also have my Hobbycraft Mustangs in the stash. Waiting for the aftermarket guys to get cracking on the correction bits.

Colin. I remember reading that the arbitrary figure designed in to the Mustang at conception was "6 foot." No doubt a "fag packet" idea- as were many at the time. Although of course- there was an awful lot of back room work done to get to that point.

6 feet x 12 = 72 inches- x 25.4= 1828.8mm divided by 48 = 38.1mm hhmmmmmmm

I would like to add- the ICM kit is the best Alison Mustang- they grafter the Tamiya tail and wing (IIRC) onto the Acc. Min. fuselage- they REALLY TRIED to deliver. They realised the faults of the Acc Min kit.

They also tried with their 109 F series- as yet NO Luftwaffe "Experten" has come forward to publicly state WHY ICM totally revised the leading edge wings-weep on that kit.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Mentalguru