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RAF Mustang III


brooksy

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Good afternoon folks, and happy new year to one and all!

In an effort to get my mojo back, I have one of the beautiful Tamiya 1/48 RAF Mustag III kits to build, and I am getting all my info on this aircraft from the internet, as I don't have any reference material of my own. I am a bit confused about the main gear door colours though and wonder if anyone can help me. On some of the photos, the prominent reinforcing strip rivited to the inside of the main gear doors are bare metal, and shiny compared to the rest of the door, but on other models, it has been painted zinc chromate yellow like the rear spar. Does anyone know what it should be please? So far, I have painted the rear spar in the zinc chromate yellow, the spar in between the wheel wells interior green, and the rest of the bays are bare aluminium, as mentioned in Randy Lutz's article.

Thanks very much

Andy :)

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Read this! :)

Dana Bell

Mustang corrosion control...

Fri Oct 1, 2004 08:33

160.111.69.104

You've got several options here, but unpainted "natural" aluminum with a yellow zinc chromate main spar is the most common for P-51Bs and Cs.

The early Allison-engined Mustangs used the standard prewar corrosion control finishes for the wheel wells and struts: two coats of primer and one coat of aluminized lacquer.

In 1942, before the Merlin-engined Mustangs entered production, North American was granted permission to build Mustangs without interior primers as a means of speeding production. The main wing spars were generally primed with a single coat of yellow zinc chromate to protect the alloy spar itself, to avoid dissimilar metal corrosion in the areas where the spar contacted the inner faces of the aluminum skin, and to reduce static electricity buildup on the aft face of the spar (where the main tanks were located). There is a chance that some early Bs and Cs were delivered with unpainted spars, but I've never found more than a slight possibility of that having occurred.

As part of the cost- and time-savings measures, all other non-cockpit interior areas were left in unpainted aluminum finish. Since there were several grades of aluminum present, this led to corrosion issues on the Mustang, and at some point (I've not been able to pin down a date or place in production) wheel wells began to appear in overall yellow zinc chromate. I know for sure that this happened late in P-51D production. The problems had certainly been identified during B and C production, and fixes were ordered, I just can't find proof that these earlier models actually got the fix.

If, for any reason, a second coat of primer was applied to the wheel well, it would have been green zinc chromate (by that time, the same as Interior Green). I haven't seen evidence of that during WWII, but it could have happened.

As for aluminum lacquer with a yellow spar, that's the one option that didn't happen and actually makes the least sense. The object was to save money and time, so most corrosion control finishes were eliminated. If aluminized lacquer WAS used, it would have been used to overspray the entire well. (Leaving the main spar in yellow in a lacquered well was made more difficult by wartime shortages of both Magic Mask and Parafilm.)

This may be splitting hairs on an OOOOO paint brush, but an aluminized lacquer finish just doesn't look the same as an unpainted aluminum finish, even in scale.

Hope something here helps and makes sense...

Cheers,

Dana

Dana Bell

AM Mustang wells...

Fri Oct 1, 2004 09:11

160.111.69.104

I plan to use an aluminum lacquer effect in my Accurate Miniatures P-51A wells - it's certainly the best documented option. The caution here is that later Allison-engined Mustangs MAY have had unpainted wells with a yellow zinc chromate spar - that documentation probably won't turn up until both of us have completed our models!

Cheers,

Dana

Dana Bell

Not so, sir...

Fri Oct 1, 2004 07:50

160.111.69.104

I'm afraid "current thinking" is wrong on this one - there is no evidence of aluminum lacquered wheel wells with a yellow main spar, while there are plenty of photos of overall yellow P-51 wells.

You've got to ask yourself how the manufacturer would have been able to paint the well aluminum without getting any overspray on the spar, or why anyone should even attempt such a thing.

Dana

Dana Bell

Mustang subassys...

Fri Oct 1, 2004 15:22

160.111.69.104

A good thought, but not backed by photos of the production line. The wheel wells were not actually subassemblies - they were just spaces for the wheels. The top of the well was the inside of the skin, as was the bottom. The back was the spar - everything else was gear-related or a rib.

The spar was painted with yellow zinc chromate prior to construction of the wing. Any other finish was applied during construction.

Cheers,

Dana

Dana Bell

Mustang wells...

Fri Oct 1, 2004 09:03

160.111.69.104

Sorry to leave that post without details - I've added an explanation above. You're right that the effect was the result of the production process. I was distinguishing between unpainted aluminum and aluminum lacquer - two different processes in manufacturing and two different effects in modeling.

Many modelers probably don't care - after all, we all have to paint the plastic "silver" - but with the wide variety of aluminum finish paints now available there'll be a lot of folks looking for the most accurate effect in their painting.

I seem to remember modeling as an easier hobby back in the days when everything got brushed with a coat of Pactra Flat Aluminum - the paint had a grain larger than a silver dollar, but I loved that stuff!

Cheers,

Dana

Dana Bell

Anticorrosive colors and P-51s...

Tue Aug 27 10:19:29 2002

209.244.225.103

There are really three phases of wartime painting of Mustang wheel wells - all related to corrosion control. At first, the metal surfaces were to be painted with one coat of zinc chromate (yellow), one coat of tinted zinc chromate (green), and one coat of aluminized lacquer. This finish appears to have been limited to Allison-engined Mustangs.

Two things happened in 1942. First, a shortage of aluminum ended the use of the aluminized lacquer and forced the reformulation of green zinc chromate. (This led to the use of other colors for wheel wells and struts - for example the Neutral Gray on Lightings and Bronze Green on some P-39s and B-29s.) Second, the AAF allowed North American to produce AT-6s, B-25s, and P-51s without primers to ease production. (Boeing got similar permission for its B-17s.) This is what led to the unpainted wheel well noted below. Throughout this period, the wing spar appears to have consistently carried zinc chromate (yellow) primer. (The primer reduced corrosion where the spar contacted the aluminum sheet and reduced the buildup of static electricity - an important issue with the fuel tanks mounted just aft of the spar.) This combination, as noted below, was common on Bs and Cs, and most Ds and Ks.

By 1944, the AAF was receiving complaints about corrosion in a number of aircraft, including the Mustang. Some unspecified action was required, particularly to reduce dissimilar metal corrosion between structural members and skin panels. Some manufacturers gave the structure a coat of yellow zinc chromate before adding the skin. Some left the structure unprimed and gave the inner surface of the skin a coat of yellow zinc chromate. It's not clear how North American handled the problem, but there is one undated color shot of a P-51D (or K) production line showing the entire wheel well primed in yellow.

This is just a general explanation - it won't help you know what color the wheel wells would be on any particular aircraft. But you can make your own informed decisions based on the date you suspect any particular aircraft (and not just a Mustang) was manufactured.

Cheers,

-Dana

Dana Bell

Green Zinc Chromate...

Tue Aug 27 10:30:45 2002

209.244.225.103

Interior Green is the ANA color name for the zinc chromate green mixed from black and zinc chromate yellow. Up until 1942, the zinc chromate green formula also included aluminum paste or powder - this was dropped due to the wartime aluminum shortage. For about a year, each company did some experimentation trying to match zinc chromate green using different tints (though the Navy also used a red tint). In 1943 the ANA colors came along, and after that, Interior Green quickly became standard.

-Dana

With apologies to Steven Eisenmann for copying the info from his post on Hyperscale

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Thanks for such a detailed explanation Andy. As usual, the subject of paints is a complicated one, but I shall leave what I have alone for now. The only discrepency I have is the spar that runs fore to aft between the wheel bays is interior green, which I didn't see mentioned in your article. I shall leave the inside face of the gear doors bare aluminium aswell.

Many thanks for your help.

Regards

Andy :)

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And then read this:-

"as suggested by Dana's, early Mustang wells were primed until the finish was deleted as a cost/time saving measure; late B/C/Mk 111s and subsequent were again primered as an anti-corrosion measure with one coat of YZC. Magnesium castings and the like (where there was a greater risk of corrosion) were given a second coat of GZC before assembly - the different colour making it easier to see during application and to check the second coat had actually been applied. Hence the appearance on such a/c was largely YZC (on everything including the inner door faces and the rubbing strip on the clamshell doors) with touches of GZC here and there.

These finishes are called up in the Mustang painting specs and drawings and applied to all the US production after the late B/C/Mk IIIs, i.e. to all the USAAF, RAF and Commonwealth deliveries after (say) late 1943. While there were detail equipment and marking differences between the a/c built for US and foreign orders the basic finishes remained the same; except of course for ther period when USAAF a/c were delivered in NMF and the Brit ones were still being camouflaged. There was no "Commonwealth" finishes spec as such but differences were noted on the NAA drawings and in the specs for each contract. By way of example there were differences in the stencilling to account for language usage...I think it was Churchill who noted the Yanks and the Brits were one nation "divided by a common language". The Australian (CAC) production started out the same way as the late US a/c but later frequently had a single coat of 'Aluminium' paint sprayed overall.

HTH,

David Muir

Author "Southern Cross Mustangs"

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Hmmm...I suppose it depends when your Mustang was built and how accurate you want to be :)

From that info Nick I would assume that the wheel wells and doors would be Yellow Zinc Chromate and wing spars in Green Zinc Chromate? Depending on when the aircraft was built??

Edited by Andy K
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"I've been in contact with an individual who is in the profession of restoring aircraft. he has indicated that he has not come across a P-51 with multi-colored individual component parts, not even if made of magnesium."

I'd go with David Muir over your anonymous aircraft restorer soundbite every time. He has done the decade of research and written the book. 464 pages of hard, detailed fact about the Mustang versus a single, anonymous opinion of unknown provenance, experience and qualification. Plus a whole chapter on Internal Finishes and a whole section on Wheel Wells in "Southern Cross Mustangs". He even gives the tubing colour identification chart from the decal affixed to the main spar in each wheel well. No contest.

But at the end of the day it's up to Mr K what he does.

This is my interpretation from Randy Lutz's build article on Hyperscale. Can I get away with this do you think?

Andy :)

FWIW The unrestored photos in David Muir's book show the flanges also painted in ZCY rather than aluminium.

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In the Detail and Scale book on the P-51 (page 39) there's a clear wartime colour photograph of a USAAF P-51B the main wheel well doors are clearly NMF with centre section in YZC, make of this what you will. I should say this is a OG/grey aircraft.

Malcolm

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Well, I'm back from Tesco and have been thinking about what to do here. There seems to be so much out there in terms of written word and experience that I think the only way to be sure is to copy what's in a photograph, providing it relates to the correct aircraft and period in time. Can anyone scan one or two in for me please?

So much for a trouble free quick build to restore my mojo :wall:

Regards

Andy :)

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There is also a thread running over on Hyperscale on wheel well colours on Mustangs. It is under the heading "P-51 D, Tuskegee Airmen colour question" dated 3 January, so still on page one of Plane Talking at this time. There is a response post by Eric Whipple about four posts down which includes three colour photos, two of Allison engined P-51s, the third is of a P-51B/C which may be of help.

I'd back David Muir's response. In his acknowledgements in Southern Cross Mustangs, there is more than one person who has researched, flown, restored or maintained Mustangs in a truly hands on way and one of his close collaborators co-owns and was heavily involved in the restoration of a Mustang flying in Australia today.

Of course the basic fact that the wheel well in the Tamiya P-51 Mustang kits of various marks and models is wrong in it's depiction of the rear undercarriage well 'wall', nyah, just build it and have fun!!

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In the Detail and Scale book on the P-51 (page 39) there's a clear wartime colour photograph of a USAAF P-51B the main wheel well doors are clearly NMF with centre section in YZC, make of this what you will. I should say this is a OG/grey aircraft.

Malcolm

And in the Squadron/Signal "Allison Engined Mustangs" walk around just about every surface is GZC; cockpit, wheel wells, gear doors etc etc. Of course these are restored examples...

Nothing's simple any more :-(

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And in the Squadron/Signal "Allison Engined Mustangs" walk around just about every surface is GZC; cockpit, wheel wells, gear doors etc etc. Of course these are restored examples...

Nothing's simple any more :-(

The difference is that the photograph I am referring to is of P-51B taken during WWII,not of a restored aircraft and certainly not a P-51.

Colin as you pointed out the wheel wells are incorrect,other errors are the the link/shell ejector holes are missing or in the wrong place. Above and below the main wings there are rivets that should not be visible (North American went to great trouble to obtain a smooth wing surface by filling rivets and panel joints on the front third of the wing) and to top it off the cockpit floor is incorrect! As you said just build it it's no worse than many and better than most. :confused:

Malcolm

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Hi folks,

I am very grateful to everyone for thier time in responding to my query. I have decided to go with the original plan of the aluminium wheel well and the yellow zinc chromate rear spar, as per the Randy Luntz article, and backed up by the photo in the Hyperscale link, kindly given by ColFord.

Like some of you have already mentioned, there are other inaccuracies in the kit, so maybe I shouldn't have got so hung up on this issue. I just didn't want to start off wrong if I can help it.

Cheers for now and thanks again.

Andy :)

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