The Sky (Type “S”) is the Limit - now with "Made in the UK" Humbrol 90

[John]

WEM Sky. It's matched against BS210 and as such is a good match:

It's towards the yellow end of the model paint spectrum, but well within the ballpark.

John

[cmatthewbacon]

Odd, that “Sky” as a colour looks nothing at all like any actual sky I’ve ever seen, yet Duck Egg Blue is indeed exactly the colour of the eggs that our bantam ducks used to lay...

I wonder why they _called_ a sagey greeny concrete colour “Sky”...

bestest,

M.

[Nick Millman]

Odd, that “Sky” as a colour looks nothing at all like any actual sky I’ve ever seen, yet Duck Egg Blue is indeed exactly the colour of the eggs that our bantam ducks used to lay...

I wonder why they _called_ a sagey greeny concrete colour “Sky”...

bestest,

M.

The answer probably lies in the evolution of the colour from 'Camotint' as a (then considered) most effective sky camouflage. Originally it was supposed to render a high-flying aircraft almost invisible at certain altitudes - thus its use as an early PR colour. The blue element is fugitive but the contemporary RAF description was "duck egg blueish green". Titanine's Canadian equivalent was actually called "Camouflage Duckegg Bluish Green" and does look decidely blueish on the colour card. And note the description in the document posted by Edgar - "pale blue green".

Closest FS to the wartime colour is 34424 @ 2.26 (where a value < 2.0 = a close match) but the FS is slightly darker. The modern BS 381C Sky (#210) is even closer at 2.15 - but it is slightly darker and yellower, and in juxtaposition revealing the blue within 34424. The difference between the wartime and modern Sky is 2.48, the wartime Sky being lighter and slightly more blueish. The blue can be detected when the colour is observed relative to another.

Nick

[Stoo]

So, (and forgive me for being an ignoramus...) where would one use these colours?

Could someone come up with a summary for the clueless?

[Kes]

If I might add to the above post, when Humbrol added Duck Egg Blue and Sky Type S to their Authentic range what were the applications they had in mind? Where would DEB be applied where STS would be unsuitable, and vice versa? A question I've asked before and never found a good answer?

. . . Kes (who thinks there must be a good reason Humbrol came up with two very similar colours?)

[Greenshirt]

This has been a fascinating read...I was in a not-so-local hobby shop yesterday and saw two different tins of Humbrol 90: an older "Super Enamel" and a newer Hornby "blue stripe". The owner was unaware they were different, but we both noted the lids were slightly different in shade. I also picked up a a tin of 23 Super Enamel as it appeared very near to the blue stripe 90 (tin lids that is).

I got home and quickly opened all three. Of interest is that both Super Enamel tins were a concrete color before I stirred. I stirred for a very long time before they were fully mixed; it appeared the blue tinting had settled to the bottom. When I brushed all three next to each other, to my surprise they were all very nearly the same with 23 being just a slight touch more blue.

I'm not a true stickler for accuracy, albeit I like it close. I'll use the 23 for my factory applied Sky as it looks spot on (to my eye) to my Iliad Designs Sky chip. I'll use the 90 as a variation of locally applied as it appears much greener than the Sky chip. I do have on their FAA sheet both the Sky and Sky Blue chips. The Sky chip looks very green next to the Sky Blue, but 90 is much greener than the Sky. 23 is greener than Sky Blue, yet looks just right for Sky.

I tried Mr Hobby's 26 Duck Egg Green as another Sky alternative yesterday (first I'd seen it) and it looks like a good Eau-de-nil option for me. It was a lucky find.

Hope I'm not creating churn, but after a couple of years of painting variants of Sky (most of which I'd mixed unsuccessfully), I think I've finally found what will satisfy me. Thanks for this thread!

Tim

[John]

here's another one to add to the collection - Vallejo Model Color 70885 109 Pastel Green, which claims to be a match for FS595 34424. It's actually a bit darker and greyer than 34424, visually I would put it closer to 34432:

Compared to British standards:

Again, darker and grayer than either BS381 or the RAFM chips.

John

[John]

Here's a real blast from the past - an genuine, unopened tin of Airfix M8 Duck Egg Blue:

Well, it's opened now and the first thing that strikes you is that it isn't blue! In fact I'd say that it's towards the greener end of the Sky spectrum, but still well within th ballpark:

John

[Mike Starmer]

If I may make a comment here, and if those of you that already know this would forgive me, but simply because a colour on one company's chart has a certain name it does not follow that the same name of a colour on another company's chart are matches since there is no copyright on colour names. So to compare BS 381 'Sky Blue' and MAP 'Sky Blue' and expect them to be even similar is a pointless excercise. The same follows for model paint companies.

Re: Prototype Spitfire colour. Ian Huntley article unknown date, in which there is copy of a document that listed the colours that were to be applied to aircraft participating in the 1936 Royal Review: R.A.F. Pageant and S.B.A.C. Exhibition. The colours were to be '...a single (overall), and preferably, 'light' coloured paint scheme. And ...'either matt or gloss finish.' The colours were originally selected by the manufacturers and submitted to Air Ministry for approval. This is Appendix E from Air Ministry; section 2 states that 'These finishes have been approved. These are as follows:-

(a) Hawker Aircraft Ltd.---Hawker F.36/34, (K5053) Aluminium, Cellon X.

( Fairey Aviation Co. Ltd.--- Fairey 'Battle', (K4303), Aluminium, Cellon X.

© Supermarine (Vickers ) Ltd. -- Supermarine F.37/34, (K5054), French Grey, Cellon X.

'French Grey' is in BS.381C: 1930 and again in the 1964 edition as Colour No.360 and by eyeball comparision identical. Withdrawn by 1988. French Grey is about the tone of Humbrol 129, slightly darker and more green. I wondered why Supermarine had selected French Grey when the other companies had selected Aluminium, untill I found out that Supermarine were using a colour they called 'Supermarine Seaplane Grey' on the fuselages of Walrus aircraft instead of the Cerrux Grey that other companies used for naval aircraft. To me it follows that with stocks of this colour to hand then this would be quite suitable to use on K5054 following the Air Ministry's requirement that the aircraft were to in 'light finish'. In addition K5054 had it's fuselage roundels and serial numbers outlined with white as in the same practice as that for Walrus aircraft. The question now arises that if the Spitfire was essentially a light grey why has it been reported almost always as light blue or blue-green etc. These originate from media reports of the day when the journalists saw the machine on a bright sunny day and the high gloss reflected this as a blue cast on the aircraft surfaces and as newsman will, reported what they saw. No one then bothered to correct this observation and blues etc. have been perpetuated ever since.

[Edgar]

There was, also, the fairly short-lived "Rolls-Royce" colour scheme, which Gordon Mitchell, in his book, named "cerulean blue." Rolls-Royce have told me that their company vehicles, in the 1930s, were painted an "in-house" colour, which was matched to the blue of the Mediterranean sky. I've no idea if any R-R vehicles still exist, in that old colour.

Edgar

[John]

There was, also, the fairly short-lived "Rolls-Royce" colour scheme, which Gordon Mitchell, in his book, named "cerulean blue." Rolls-Royce have told me that their company vehicles, in the 1930s, were painted an "in-house" colour, which was matched to the blue of the Mediterranean sky. I've no idea if any R-R vehicles still exist, in that old colour.

Edgar

Back to Azure Blue again...!

John

[AnonymousAA72]

Back to Azure Blue again...!

John

...or PRU blue?

[Edgar]

...or PRU blue?

Not sure how high Rolls-Royce lorries flew in 1936

Edgar

[Dave Fleming]

'French Grey' is in BS.381C: 1930 and again in the 1964 edition as Colour No.360 and by eyeball comparision identical. Withdrawn by 1988. French Grey is about the tone of Humbrol 129, slightly darker and more green. I wondered why Supermarine had selected French Grey when the other companies had selected Aluminium, untill I found out that Supermarine were using a colour they called 'Supermarine Seaplane Grey' on the fuselages of Walrus aircraft instead of the Cerrux Grey that other companies used for naval aircraft. To me it follows that with stocks of this colour to hand then this would be quite suitable to use on K5054 following the Air Ministry's requirement that the aircraft were to in 'light finish'. In addition K5054 had it's fuselage roundels and serial numbers outlined with white as in the same practice as that for Walrus aircraft. The question now arises that if the Spitfire was essentially a light grey why has it been reported almost always as light blue or blue-green etc. These originate from media reports of the day when the journalists saw the machine on a bright sunny day and the high gloss reflected this as a blue cast on the aircraft surfaces and as newsman will, reported what they saw. No one then bothered to correct this observation and blues etc. have been perpetuated ever since.

I recall Supermarine Seaplane Grey being postulated as the colour for K5054 by someone once (Might have been Ian Huntley). The effect could also be attributed to primer affecting a thin top coat in bright light (shades of the F-4J(UK)

[Super Aereo]

With all due respect I am not sure the "sunny day" idea holds up: grey looks grey in the sun and the finish would have had to be almost specular for it to reflect the sky. A cerulean blue is by definition azure in hue (a bit like the colours of the graphics in this forum), and that's quite different from grey, even for a supposedly colour-blind journalist.

IMHO, of course, and very happy to stand corrected if need be.

[Edgar]

Don't lose sight of the fact that K5054 had four "schemes":- unpainted (or only primed), Rolls-Royce blue, Supermarine grey, R.A.F. camouflage, so arguing about grey, or blue, is somewhat pointless because, at various stages, it was both.

Also, don't lose sight of the fact that this thread is (or was) on the subject of Sky.

Edgar

[Super Aereo]

I am well aware of the temporal permutations to the various finishes of K5054, I was just saying that I would not confuse the original RR Blue with the Supermarine grey.

[Edgar]

And I was addressing my remarks to all on this website, not just one.

Edgar

[Fernando]

...or PRU blue?

Hi, all,

TMK, PRU Blue started life as "Camotint Blue-Grey", and therefore doesn't seem to have had any connection to "Cerulean Blue".

Fernando

[Edgar]

Finally (well, maybe not) found that Sky Blue was a pre-war R.A.E. colour devised for drones, as below. I've found a confirmatory letter, which implies that it was abandoned when Cotton devised his Camotint (never heard of Camotint Blue-Grey, but Titanine seem to have had some strange names for their colours, e.g. "Cosmic Blue," which might also have been P.R.U. Blue,) since both were designed for use at medium altitudes. Remember that Cotton devised Sky as a colour for his Blenheims; the Spitfires came later, and Cotton got a huge shock when he was allowed to have them.

If airfields had supplies of Sky Blue, for their drones, it doesn't require a huge leap of faith to imagine them using it, when told to use Sky, which they probably didn't have, and didn't have any stores reference for, either.

Edgar

[Fernando]

Hi, Edgar,

The colour is so named in the book on PR Spitfires from Ventura, when talking about the developing camouflages schemes and colours in the early PDU/PRU days. It also records a "Camotint Blue-Grey (Light)", but says nothing else about it.

Fernando

[kitbasher2009]

For a pair of whiffed Spifire Mk Is (one being a Type 312 - look it up!) I used Xtracrylic RLM 76 for Sky Blue. Looks close enough to me. Both were on display at Telford and no one complained.

Good thread, only just come across it.

My preferences are Humbrol 90 as a base coat and Xtracolor X7 for the top coat (I hand brush, by the way). I always use Xtracolor RLM76 for Sky Blue, including my model of the Spitfire prototype.

[John]

Here's another contender - Vallejo 874 Green Sky.

Reading that title on a paint rack in a shop you could be forgiven for thinking that this was Vallejo's punt at Sky. It isn't, and the description of the paint is therefor unfortunate. The colour is much darker and more grey than Sky:

Vallejo themselves match it to FS595 34272 in their literature and it isn't bad, but is a tad more yellow than the FS595 chip:

So, don't be fooled by the name - this colour isn't Sky, green or otherwise.

John

[Potato Pete]

Another option - just sprayed some Tamiya AS-29 out of a rattle can, looks like a passable Sky, maybe a little dark......

No, maybe not, much darker than either xtracrylix or polyscale

Pete

Edited September 19, 2010 by Potato Pete

[Greenshirt]

I decided to pull out all my "sky" paints and make a card for easy comparison. See below:

I choose the color depending on the subject and whatever research tells me the "sky" undersides/band/spinner should be bluer, greener, darker, lighter. Generally I like Pollyscale's 505254 for FAA. I must say on my monitor the scan is much darker than the physical card, which is a bright white, and the colors are much more muted. I left it in its original scanned format so it can be adjusted as needed.

Krylon's "celery" enamel is actually very close to Humbrol's Hu-90. And while the above discussion seems to indicate Super Enamel and Blue Stripe as two different shades, my eye cannot discern a difference. I will note that all of "super enamel" tins I open have a black-ish liquid on top before I stir them thoroughly, whereas the "blue stripe" tins all seem to have a concrete shade liquid on top. Both tins of 90 came out the same after stirring, albeit the "blue stripe" required much more stirring.

Hope this helps or aids to the discussion.

Tim