The Sky (Type “S”) is the Limit - now with "Made in the UK" Humbrol 90

[Jens]

This is AM Sky Blue against BS381c:101 Sky Blue, and you can see that they are completely different shades...

I think the original 1930 shade may have been a bit lighter but Mike Starmer has my copy of the 1930 standard at the moment, so I'm working from memory here.

I like the 97 Eggshell finish! Looks like another contender for the Sky crown. That means that in the mid-1990s, Humbrol had 4 different paints out that were there or thereabouts for Sky.

John

Thank you for showing the different shades of Sky Blue.

Obviously, I used 97 Eggshell for the Camotint green, but then again I believe this colour was used before Sky and they weren't that different after all.

I am also still a bit confused by Edgar's comment about the old Humbrol 90 being suitable for Spitfire and Walrus interior green. As far as I can see 90 has changed very little from the old tins to the current one.

Regards,

Jens

[Edgar]

I am also still a bit confused by Edgar's comment about the old Humbrol 90 being suitable for Spitfire and Walrus interior green. As far as I can see 90 has changed very little from the old tins to the current one.

Remember, I matched the colour, of several original, un-repainted cockpit parts against the colour chip, as supplied by Humbrol, in their book "The Colour System," of around 9 years ago, not the actual paint. Somebody gave me a right rollicking for doing it that way, apparently believing that I should travel to an airfield, lugging x number of paint tins, stir them, paint samples onto cards, wait for them to dry, then do a comparison. There was a suspicion, but it was November, this year, before I found that Hornby have changed the formula to match Sky, but I never thought to ask them when the change was made.

Edgar

[John]

Hello John,

thank's for your work. I have colour number 4 in an grey tin. It is also a colour in the Sky/ Eau d Nil range.

Colour number 1 was avialable here in Germany in 2002 - the year I buy it - as Super Enamel. Here it was a matt medium grey colour.

Claus

According to this thread on ATF

http://airfixtributeforum.myfastforum.org/...943&start=0

Humbrol 4 was Light Admiralty Grey which is another BS381 colour, 697.

John

[Jens]

Remember, I matched the colour, of several original, un-repainted cockpit parts against the colour chip, as supplied by Humbrol, in their book "The Colour System," of around 9 years ago, not the actual paint. Somebody gave me a right rollicking for doing it that way, apparently believing that I should travel to an airfield, lugging x number of paint tins, stir them, paint samples onto cards, wait for them to dry, then do a comparison. There was a suspicion, but it was November, this year, before I found that Hornby have changed the formula to match Sky, but I never thought to ask them when the change was made.

Edgar

Thanks for the reply Edgar.

As for your matching method I see nothing wrong in comparing colours to original parts. Is the Humbrol colour chip as light as the samples in John's original post?

Could the Humbrol chip have been too dark?

Please understand that I have no doubt that you have found the chip and the original parts to be identically coloured, I am just trying to understand how and why.

Regards,

Jens

[Doug]

I know this has already been asked, but can we pin this post?

Doug.

[Edgar]

Is the Humbrol colour chip as light as the samples in John's original post?

Could the Humbrol chip have been too dark?

I'm very much loath to try to check colours/intensity against a colour monitor, since my settings could be completely at variance with another's, and, for much of the time, I'd be looking at the chip under artificial light, anyway.

Too dark for what? (and I'm not being rude.) As far as I can tell, until recently 90 was never intended to be Sky; during the "Authentics" era, Sky had its own tinlet, but was dropped, along with the whole Authentics range. When Humbrol brought out the "The Colour System" file, they included a 4-colour mix, for Sky, using 34, 101, 99 & 60.

As I often do, I went to the airfield, toting colour chips, including Humbrol and F.S., just on the offchance of finding something. For years, I'd never had a clue what 90 was for; it was, literally, a "Bloody Hell, so that's what it's for" moment, when I found a match. It was only after that, that two people said that they'd built an Airfix 1/24 Spitfire Ia, from the 1980s, and the instructions said to use 90 for the interior. Then, of course 20/20 hindsight kicked in, and I began to look again at some of my (and other peoples') photos, and realised that very few came anywhere near 78, with 90 being a far better bet.

It would be interesting if someone (anyone?) could find any old Titanine records, to see if Camotint is recorded; I've been the Rolls-Royce/Derby paint manufacturer route, to try to find anything on K5054's first "proper" colour, and got nowhere, so this sort of research isn't easy.

Edgar

[Nick Millman]

It would be interesting if someone (anyone?) could find any old Titanine records, to see if Camotint is recorded; I've been the Rolls-Royce/Derby paint manufacturer route, to try to find anything on K5054's first "proper" colour, and got nowhere, so this sort of research isn't easy.

Edgar

The 'Camotint' pigment formula was recorded by Titanine and I've posted it here before, most recently in the Spitfire colour thread, but I've not seen a Titanine chart chip specifically for it. The formula was the same as for Sky.

[cdk]

According to this thread on ATF

http://airfixtributeforum.myfastforum.org/...943&start=0

Humbrol 4 was Light Admiralty Grey which is another BS381 colour, 697.

John

Hi John,

the Humbrol 4 I have is like a glossy variant of Humbrol 23 in the grey tin. Unfortunly I have no BS Chart, so I have no idea about BS colour 697.

Claus

[John]

Hi John,

the Humbrol 4 I have is like a glossy variant of Humbrol 23 in the grey tin. Unfortunly I have no BS Chart, so I have no idea about BS colour 697.

Claus

This is a chip of 697 held against a Humbrol 65 Aircraft Blue finish:

John

[cdk]

This is a chip of 697 held against a Humbrol 65 Aircraft Blue finish:

John

John,

looks like Humbrol had changed the colour. I have no URL to show pictures here. If you like send me your e-mail adress and I send you a scan with Humbrol 4.

Claus

[ollieholmes]

This makes very interesting reading, i will stick to my Xtracrylic Sky. But how about sky grey as seen on Canadian Seafires?

[John]

This makes very interesting reading, i will stick to my Xtracrylic Sky. But how about sky grey as seen on Canadian Seafires?

I don't know the answer to that, sorry. However if it's the same shade as the early WW11 Fleet Air Arm colour, then it's essentially a light neutral grey.

John

[John]

To update this thread slightly, I ordered WEM Sky but it's out of stock. I did, however, get Eau de Nil (BS 381c 16), Sky Blue (AM) and Sky Blue (BS 381c No.1). Just waiting for the post man!

John

[Edgar]

According to IPMS Canada, the Seafires' underside colour was I-13 (501-106,) which Klaus lists as slightly lighter than 16314.

Edgar

[Edgar]

I found this, yesterday, in a file at Kew; I think paragraph 2 clears up (or should clear up) the Camotint/Sky debate.

Edgar

[Nick Millman]

It's nice to see that confirmation and especially about the pale blue-green. There was never any doubt in my mind as I had already posted on 29th December last year:-

"The 'Camotint' pigment formula was recorded by Titanine and I've posted it here before, most recently in the Spitfire colour thread, but I've not seen a Titanine chart chip specifically for it. The formula was the same as for Sky."

[Jens]

Great find Edgar! It now appears that my Spitfire PR IA is correct.

Regards,

Jens

[Dave Fleming]

Nice to see it in black and white primary source - never been any real doubt.

Thanks Edgar (and Nick for confirmation from another route!)

[John]

Indeed, nice to see another little bit of the story slot into place.

John

[John]

Here are another couple of colours to add to the collection.

Firstly, LifeColor UA 095. This identifies itself as Sky and as FS595 34424, so the first check is against an FS 595 set:

Pretty much spot on.

Compared to the AM Chips in the RAF Museum book and BS381c:

Now for something from the depths of the paint box - Humbrol 97 Eggshell:

Again, close enough for most purposes.

Comparing 97 to the old Authentic shade HB5 Sky:

I wouldn't be surprised if "Eggshell" was the formulation of HB5 carried over into the Standard range - visually they are almost identical. So - why did Humbrol have 4 "Sky" shades (23, 90, 95 and 97) in it's range in the 1980s, but didn't call any of them Sky?

John

[JosephLalor]

I found this, yesterday, in a file at Kew; I think paragraph 2 clears up (or should clear up) the Camotint/Sky debate.

Edgar

Hi Edgar,

Any chance of putting that image up again? I managed to miss that one and it appears to have been deleted.

Thanks, Joseph

[Edgar]

Any chance of putting that image up again? I managed to miss that one and it appears to have been deleted.

All without moving my lips.

Edgar

[Nick Millman]

Ian Huntley notes "many variations in Sky" observing that Siscoline distemper Sky was a "brightish green when fresh" whilst Carsons was a "slightly greyer green". The distemper finishes and "contractor Sky" tended to "bleach" quickly and this has been observed by Ron Belling too.

"Distemper finishes tended to bleach fairly rapidly and soon looked quite different to aircraft repainted with matt Sky cellulose enamel to DTD 308. Some distemper not properly mixed before application did look slightly blue as the yellow part of the ingredients was not fully incorporated."

There is a tendency, as I've noted before, to add the archeological evidence of surviving but age deteriorated paint to the inevitable original variations in order to discover a "new" colour. This extant "new" colour can then be compared to old paint charts and identified as being Woolworths House Paint - or whatever.

One of the best (or worst?) examples I have come across (but not aircraft related) was a lovely creamy beige paint matched to an old chart. It was cellulose based and laboratory analysis of the original paint revealed that the colour had in fact once been a pale green. By that time the "restored" exhibit had already gone on display in its "authentic" café au lait colour scheme.

Nick

[John]

Here's another one from the very depths of the paint box - Humbrol Authentic HB4 Duck Egg Blue! First of all, it isn't blue:

Compared to Humbrol 95 Concrete it's visually almost identical. It's also close enough to HB5 Sky for me to suggest that you would have to see them together to note any difference.

Compared to historical and current Humbrol 90:

it's much more yellow than either. That surprised me.

Compared to historical and current Humbrol 23:

quite a bit different from the older Humbrol sample. Closer, but much more yellow, when looking at the Hornby shade.

Strange, isn't it?

John

[The original Kit Builder]

Thanks for this. Strangely, I have never come across any of the variations of 'duck egg blue' you have displayed here.

Indeed, my experience of it is that it is quite a bit lighter. It also perfectly matches the colour used by the studio to paint Star Trek, The Next Generation's Enterprise and that is what I used it for, along with matt 65 'aircraft blue', which is actually fairly close to the RAFM book's 'duck egg blue', though it would seem slightly darker.