Jump to content

PRU Colors or Colours


phantomfixer

Recommended Posts

Hi Eveyone,

Im new here and have read about some RAF colors that are new to me. Mostly all the PRU prefixed ones, such as PRU Mauve and the Blues like Mediterrenean. Maybe someone has posted this before. How about posting your recepies for these colors. Oh and if this goes somewhere else , sorry and can you place it where it goes

Thanks To All

Walt

Edited by phantomfixer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

PRU Blue? Easy. I just use the Xtracrylix one. Lovely colour and it looks bang on

Don't know about PRU Mauve and I'd certainly like it available straight fron a tin! Hate mixing anything as I'm far too lazy.

I was sure Xtracolor did PRU Mauve, as I'm sure I have a tin of it somewhere, but it's not listed on the Hannants site. (EDIT - they did - it was X035). They do a PRU pink, but I've not seen it.

AFAIK there is no known sample of PRU Mauve anyway, so anything is just guess work. The colour I remember from the tin was quite dark.

Edited by Dave Fleming
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"AFAIK there is no known sample of PRU Mauve anyway, so anything is just guess work."

Actually I posted a sample from a measured Munsell value with a rendered chip some time back. It was as accurate as I could make it. Only one response - that it didn't "look" right. Won't be wasting my time like that again any time soon. :cold:

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"AFAIK there is no known sample of PRU Mauve anyway, so anything is just guess work."

Actually I posted a sample from a measured Munsell value with a rendered chip some time back. It was as accurate as I could make it. Only one response - that it didn't "look" right. Won't be wasting my time like that again any time soon. :cold:

I don't recakll seeing that - any chance you could PM it to me?

What did you base the Munsell value on? Is there an actual sample of the colour?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

compucolor [remember them, anyone?] did a PRU purple many, many, many years back.

i picked up a couple of pots from a stand at the 2009 cosford show.

still struggling to think what RAF a/c would have used the shade and if its the same or similiar to

xtracolor's PRU mauve.

Edited by Howard of Effingham
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It was in the thread on the PR Low Flying Scheme in September but I was so wee weed off that I deleted the post with the chips. After I had posted the chips and information (an hour's work) it was completely ignored and there were some people still waffling on speculatively about what the colours might look like - sheesh. :wall: I am convinced some people post without bothering to actually read the other posts in the threads. This is the only remaining exchange there about them:-

""In the RAF Museum's book, on camouflage colours, the Extra Dark Sea Green colour "chip" is very much darker than that on page 1 of this thread, in fact it's almost black, rather akin to Luftwaffe prop colour."

Whilst I respect your personal opinion about the colour it was analysed using Geoff Thomas' given Munsell value - 2.5 G 3.5/2. That was then checked against his given Methuen value 27F4 and the MAP chip in the RAF museum book to verify that the values were correct. They are. The chip was then rendered as the sRGB equivalent of Munsell 2.5 G 3/2 which is actually slightly darker than the fractional value given by Thomas but closer in appearance to the MAP chip. The combine of these values tells us what the colour is like (that is their purpose) and it is not "almost black"! If someone has a measured value for the Luftwaffe prop colour I'll give a precise measurement of how close - or far apart - they are.

The sRGB colour as shown on screen may appear slightly lighter (brighter actually) to the eye than the chip in the book but digitally they are very close. Subjectively and visually I would not describe the colour as a black green but that may depend upon the illuminant it is being viewed under and/or the individual's perception of colour. It is "colder" and "bluer" than MAP Dark Green. The diffuse reflectivity values are 8% and 7% respectively so in lightness/darkness they are very close with Dark Green technically darker by a whisker. How they might appear to the eye will be very dependent upon the individual perception of olive green vs blue green and the illuminant being used to view them. It is helpful to use northern daylight to view and compare the actual painted chip colours rather than artificial light or direct sunlight."

Thomas gives Munsell 2.5 P 5/4.5 for the Mauve from a Stores (?) promulgated mix (one part bright ID Red 33B.72, 2 parts PRU Blue 33B.494 and 5 parts PRU Pink 33B.NIV) which is better than guesswork and I have found through verification exercises that most of his values check out in cross referencing better than some others (no names no pack drill). The latter colour (PRU Pink) was also subjected to a bombardment of speculation here recently based on its appearance in a few colour photos FFS. It is still in the British Standard! If you PM with your email address I'll send you the chips and the matches but I'm not posting them here again - I'm not going to post any colour analysis here until I've finished sulking. :tease:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not going to post any colour analysis here until I've finished sulking.

FYI - I'd always put your calculations before somebody else's guesswork.

I don't think you'd be wasting your time posting your analysis here. I'm sure some of us are taking notes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It was in the thread on the PR Low Flying Scheme in September but I was so wee weed off that I deleted the post with the chips. After I had posted the chips and information (an hour's work) it was completely ignored and there were some people still waffling on speculatively about what the colours might look like - sheesh. :wall: I am convinced some people post without bothering to actually read the other posts in the threads. This is the only remaining exchange there about them:-

""In the RAF Museum's book, on camouflage colours, the Extra Dark Sea Green colour "chip" is very much darker than that on page 1 of this thread, in fact it's almost black, rather akin to Luftwaffe prop colour."

Whilst I respect your personal opinion about the colour it was analysed using Geoff Thomas' given Munsell value - 2.5 G 3.5/2. That was then checked against his given Methuen value 27F4 and the MAP chip in the RAF museum book to verify that the values were correct. They are. The chip was then rendered as the sRGB equivalent of Munsell 2.5 G 3/2 which is actually slightly darker than the fractional value given by Thomas but closer in appearance to the MAP chip. The combine of these values tells us what the colour is like (that is their purpose) and it is not "almost black"! If someone has a measured value for the Luftwaffe prop colour I'll give a precise measurement of how close - or far apart - they are.

The sRGB colour as shown on screen may appear slightly lighter (brighter actually) to the eye than the chip in the book but digitally they are very close. Subjectively and visually I would not describe the colour as a black green but that may depend upon the illuminant it is being viewed under and/or the individual's perception of colour. It is "colder" and "bluer" than MAP Dark Green. The diffuse reflectivity values are 8% and 7% respectively so in lightness/darkness they are very close with Dark Green technically darker by a whisker. How they might appear to the eye will be very dependent upon the individual perception of olive green vs blue green and the illuminant being used to view them. It is helpful to use northern daylight to view and compare the actual painted chip colours rather than artificial light or direct sunlight."

Thomas gives Munsell 2.5 P 5/4.5 for the Mauve from a Stores (?) promulgated mix (one part bright ID Red 33B.72, 2 parts PRU Blue 33B.494 and 5 parts PRU Pink 33B.NIV) which is better than guesswork and I have found through verification exercises that most of his values check out in cross referencing better than some others (no names no pack drill). The latter colour (PRU Pink) was also subjected to a bombardment of speculation here recently based on its appearance in a few colour photos FFS. It is still in the British Standard! If you PM with your email address I'll send you the chips and the matches but I'm not posting them here again - I'm not going to post any colour analysis here until I've finished sulking. :tease:

Did I say that? I can't remember!! I'm a scientist at heart, an investigator by training so I tend to look for the evidence and evaluate it.

Thanks for the reminder on Thomas' reciept for PRU Mauve.

I note no-one has any comments on my theory on the scheme applied to mk XIIIs at the end of that thread - maybe I should sulk as well!!!

Edited by Dave Fleming
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, it was Edgar :)

Yes, do, a good sulk works wonders especially when combined with a bracing walk in the fresh air to blow away the cobwebs! Email with chips (no fish and no fishy chips) on the way.

Thank you for that Dan. When I get back from me walk along the cliffs maybe I'll post them again then.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can only say that I'd be too gobsmacked to reply to your post, extremely impressive, but a bit too technical for a thicko like me. However a colour chip or reference to an FS number or a recommended model paint I can uncderstand.

Cheers

Den

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for that Dan. When I get back from me walk along the cliffs maybe I'll post them again then.

As a rider I should add that... as yet, you haven't actually posted anything that is relevant to me or any models that I'm likely to do in the foreseeable future.

But I'm an amateur historian, and my career has involved me in colour theory and paint. So you are speaking my language and I'm always interested to read what you have written.

I'm also interested in what Edgar and Dave have to say, and some of the others too on their favourite topics.

(EDIT: I'm terrible at names - better at remembering icons - quite a few of which have stuck in my mind as people with authority.)

It gets most interesting when there is some sparing going on, after all, it isn't science until there has been some peer review and theories have stood up to critical analysis.

Aeroplanes really isn't my area of knowledge, so... I do kinda know when I can chirp up and throw some theories and ideas into the ring, but I also know when to shut-the-hell-up and listen, to somebody who obviously knows what they are talking about because they have put the hours in.

I have found that on forums, when somebody who knows their stuff posts a good long answer, it's a bit of a show-stopper. You can't even really reply with something like "It sounds about right to me", because in most cases, we would be taking your word for it. See what I mean?

So the thread falls silent, until somebody who hasn't bothered to read, or bothered to understand picks things up again.

Edited by ~Dan~
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll second what Dan says. I'm no great stickler for utter colour fidelity (1 because I'm idle, and 2 because you can hide so much with weathering!) but it's always worth knowing what the correct colours are. Monitors do, of course, distort them, no matter how hard you try - after all, we've all got our own, and my idea of calibrating mine is to whack it with something until it starts working again - so with any luck great big warning signs about that might head off some of the "looks wrong to me" commentary. Is there any future in trying to suggest paint matches or mixes, so we can grow our own?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can only say that I'd be too gobsmacked to reply to your post, extremely impressive, but a bit too technical for a thicko like me. However a colour chip or reference to an FS number or a recommended model paint I can uncderstand.

Cheers

Den

There is a Munsell conversion program called CMC. I think it used to be free but is about $10 now.

Joseph

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I appreciate the difficulty with monitors - not just monitors but the viewing software too (and the organic viewing equipment!). Therefore I always try to cross-reference across standards and quantify the differences - some previously made comparisons don't stack up once checked. Not everybody has Methuen or Munsell so FS 595b tends to get used most, but not always with the best results (for example there are no close comparisons to PRU Mauve in it and the nearest would lead you up the garden path).

The problem with hobby paints is that there are so many ranges now that it is quite an undertaking (and expense) to explore the best mixes. A lot of the cross-comparison table sites seem to do it from paint charts and when you check some of them are way out. Until recently, and it may still be a problem, Humbrol paints were so inconsistent that mixes were unpredictable. Something mixed from my tins might look very different to the same mix using your tins.

At the end of the day if it can bring at least an understanding of the general appearance of the colour to someone who has no other means to visualise or compare it then job done. A starting point rather than a finishing point. And to be fair the issue of colour fidelity viewed on a rendered chip is no different (and perhaps even a little more reliable, especially if the colour values are included) than the colour of paint on a model pic or in a colour photo included in a post. I recently posted some pics of the same Gekko model on my blog and in each one the dark green looked different. Without the communicated colour values it would be impossible to determine the actual colour being represented. Where a single colour photo is posted, of a model or the real thing, there are no variables so the appearance tends to be accepted at face value. Understandable but by no means foolproof. The long debates about the colours as seen in colour photos is one thing but when I see it being done with monochrome photographs which have been scanned, formatted and transmitted across systems as digitised images I can only shake my head in wonder at the special powers some people have. I wish I could look at compressed b/w images and identify the colours with such certainty as they do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Nick,

I hope the walk does indeed blow away the cobwebs! As an amateur in this field, at best, I find your responses to be clear and thorough treatments of the questions to hand. As such I really enjoy them and I get a lot of great information from them. I have come to recognize how iffy it really is to try to pin down a specific color and actually get it on a model; on the other hand, I enjoy making the effort to get as close as I can.

Regarding this present thread on PRU paints, I bought one of the Xtracolor tins of PRU Pink several years ago to complete a Spitfire FR IX project. To my utter amazement, it looked much more like Pepto Bismol than any of the renditions of active war-time pink Spits I have ever seen pictures of! So taking all the available information I had, I took some paint out of the tin and added a lot of white to it, which of course lightened it a great deal, and also made it into the prettiest pale cotton-candy pink you can imagine. What to do? I added a smidge of grey to tone it down. That worked well, although in the end I may have lightened it too much. A very unscientific approach to be sure, but it yielded a model that has the right look to it to my eyes.

I guess my point is that as a modeler, and I've been at this quite a long time, I do exercise my best judgment from time to time when I have some degree of knowledge of a particular subject. I use my own eyes and my brain, but I also start with and often rely upon the information and conclusions drawn by people in the hobby whom I have come to trust based on my own experience, and the experience of other modelers who also have a solid track record of high quality, reasonably accurate models. And when it comes to the science of color and paint, you really know your stuff.

So fear not sir; stating the truth of things will often give you heartache from those who do not want to hear it, but there are plenty of others out here in the ether who get a great deal out of your work. Pray continue to post!

Cheers, Jim

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Eveyone,

Im new here and have read about some RAF colors that are new to me. Mostly all the PRU prefixed ones, such as PRU Mauve and the Blues like Mediterrenean. Maybe someone has posted this before. How about posting your recepies for these colors. Oh and if this goes somewhere else , sorry and can you place it where it goes

Thanks To All

Walt

Hi,

these might not be 100 % correct, and there is plenty of room for taste, but an aproximation based on eyeball strictly for modelling purposes.

- Sky Type S (some early Spits): any (I prefer Xtracolor or WEMM)

- PRU Pink (early Spits, PR.1Gs): Xtracolor 034

- PRU Blue (most): any (I rather Xtracolor/crylix)

- Royal Blue (some Spits PR.IVs): Humbrol Midnight Blue, Tamiya Royal Blue

- Bosun Blue (Some Hurricane PR.IIs): Roundel Blue could be a good starting point; otherwise, the above plus some very Dark Grey (like 36081).

- Light/Dark Mediterranean Blue (an alternative for Royal Blue looking too light or PRU Blue too dark in pictures): years ago there were bottles of Aeromaster Acrylics. Now you coud mix some Very Dark Grey to Azure Blue

- Extra Dark Sea Green (low level camouflage for Spits PR.IF, on Extra Dark Sea Grey -may be they were just plain Day Fighter Scheme): A color shared by the Tropical Sea Scheme. Any FS 34092 or even Medium Green 42.

- "Pinkish White" (low level Spits FR.IXes of 16 Sqn, RAF): M'dad mix of "white, a touch of Red and a bit of light grey".

- PRU Mauve (undersurfaces for the low level camouflage): as someone said, there is a Xtracolor tin. I have no idea about what it looks like. There is also a common German WWI color in the same range, but I cannot say if they were anywhere near. Looking at some profiles (!) in the On Target publication... it seems a Sea Grey Medium a bit darker and warmer. Nic Millman will know better.

Some other PR Spitfires were painted in normal fighter schemes, or the High Altitude Fighter scheme of MSG/PRU Blue, which pose no problem.

Hope that helps,

Fernando

Edited by Fernando
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Eveyone,

Im new here and have read about some RAF colors that are new to me. Mostly all the PRU prefixed ones, such as PRU Mauve and the Blues like Mediterrenean. Maybe someone has posted this before. How about posting your recepies for these colors. Oh and if this goes somewhere else , sorry and can you place it where it goes

Thanks To All

Walt

Walt,

You had to open that can of worms.......!

PRU Blue, well use what you fancy. There were so many differences between aircraft depending upon so many factors. It faded rapidly and unpredictably, let alone where/how/when it was sprayed in the first place....

I have that from three people who flew various aircraft painted in the stuff....!

PR Pink, so little evidence to be sure what it looked like, but I personally suspect paler than most paints available. Would suggest mixing yourself, until happy. Start with White....

PR Mauve, even less evidence as to what it looked like... Take your pick.

The darker Blues, well I would suggest reading paint discussion in 'Eyes for the Phoenix', for that. Feel free to email me.... [email protected]

There are some very informative and interesting posts about these issues here, make up your own mind and experiment with what looks good to you... Who can say it's wrong...?

Colin

RECCE SIG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Colin,

Sorry , but as a yellow paper here in the US likes to advertise, Inquiring minds want to know. LOL But your right about the can of worm, all the responses were great. Although Im never going to play cards with any of you, I suspect your holding those mixes real close. Someone posted that it can get expensive to find a color by trial and error ( well everything really ). I thought maybe I or other can use the left over of some paints to make these rare colors. I have the #8 on target profile book, that covers PR spits. And this is were i got interested in some of these colors. I have picked up some mixes for the PRU Pink and the PRU Blue, but the other are really hard to find. Xtracolor I can get ,but not the the "rare" colors. And you absolutly right about who can dispute it, I got that from all the great posts .

Thanks Gang

Walt

Walt,

You had to open that can of worms.......!

PRU Blue, well use what you fancy. There were so many differences between aircraft depending upon so many factors. It faded rapidly and unpredictably, let alone where/how/when it was sprayed in the first place....

I have that from three people who flew various aircraft painted in the stuff....!

PR Pink, so little evidence to be sure what it looked like, but I personally suspect paler than most paints available. Would suggest mixing yourself, until happy. Start with White....

PR Mauve, even less evidence as to what it looked like... Take your pick.

The darker Blues, well I would suggest reading paint discussion in 'Eyes for the Phoenix', for that. Feel free to email me.... [email protected]

There are some very informative and interesting posts about these issues here, make up your own mind and experiment with what looks good to you... Who can say it's wrong...?

Colin

RECCE SIG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hiya Walt.

As Colin says,PRU Blue depended on who,where,how mixed it,part of the world,it was applied.

I mixed it for my Airfix PR.XIX(far too tight to buy some for one model,probably not to use it again).

I used:

Humbrol RAF Blue Grey 96= 2 parts

Humbrol WW1 Blue 109= 1 part

So a 2:1 ratio mix

Then I thinned it and blew it on with my Badger.

Judging on what I've seen and read on these 'ere pages,it's not a million miles away at all.

Mark

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Halfords Vauhall China Blue for PRU Blue, from a rattle can.

Xtracolour PR Pink was too pink and needed to be watered down with a half ounce tinlet of white, then its very pretty.

I can remember a method for making PR Mauve from Airkit I recall Humbrol Lufthansa Blue and red but cant mind the mix, will look it out and get back to you.

Square-peg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi '

I asked the PRU question at my local build club, and someone said he read it somewhere and the PRU Mauve mix was 5 parts PRU Pink, 2 parts PRU Blue and one part Ident Red. Im going to give it a go, First I have to mix up a batch of the PRU Pink and the PRU Blue. So since those will probably be wrong they will make the perfect PRU Mauve LOL.

Cheers

Walt

Hi Everyone,

Im new here and have read about some RAF colors that are new to me. Mostly all the PRU prefixed ones, such as PRU Mauve and the Blues like Mediterrenean. Maybe someone has posted this before. How about posting your recepies for these colors. Oh and if this goes somewhere else , sorry and can you place it where it goes

Thanks To All

Walt

Edited by phantomfixer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...