Edgar Posted November 15, 2009 Author Share Posted November 15, 2009 "I'll repeat the question, that I asked earlier; why, if 90 always was Sky, did Humbrol give a four colour mix (160x34, 5x101, 4x99, 1x60) for Sky, in that system?"And I'll repeat my earlier reply. It wasn't:- Yes, Nick, you know that it wasn't, and I know that it wasn't, but we've had another contributor who refused to accept that, hence the repeat question. Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz greenwood Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 So Edgar what colour are the BBMF baby Spit's inside? Would they be Humbrol 90 or Humbrol 78? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 This topic has triggered another memory from the part of my brain that stores useless information. I remember watching the Battle of Britain film and thinking that whoever built the props for the Spitfire and Hurricane cockpits used too light a colour, particularly on the frames behind the pilot's seat. It was some of the scenes with Michael Caine in his "Spitfire" that caught my attention. Maybe they got it right after all! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted November 15, 2009 Author Share Posted November 15, 2009 So Edgar what colour are the BBMF baby Spit's inside?Would they be Humbrol 90 or Humbrol 78? Puke green, I should think. Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Yes, Nick, you know that it wasn't, and I know that it wasn't, but we've had another contributor who refused to accept that, hence the repeat question.Edgar Got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 So IF I was to build a Spitfire I could paint it Humbrol 90 and I wouldn't be wrong? I think you need to find "Old 90." Not the new one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Puke green, I should think.Edgar Still confused over all of this. How do you differentiate between old 90 and new 90? I bought biege-green, is that old or new? It almost looks like sky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted November 21, 2009 Author Share Posted November 21, 2009 90 was beige green; it's still listed (as far as I know) as beige green, but Humbrol have changed the formula (don't know when) so that it now matches Sky. According to a friend (today) the lid still shows original 90, but it isn't what's inside. Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Posted November 27, 2009 Share Posted November 27, 2009 90 was beige green; it's still listed (as far as I know) as beige green, but Humbrol have changed the formula (don't know when) so that it now matches Sky. According to a friend (today) the lid still shows original 90, but it isn't what's inside.Edgar I switched to Gunze 312, I am certain the color I first sprayed was sky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted December 5, 2009 Author Share Posted December 5, 2009 (edited) Just been told by a good friend, who has the kit, while mine still hasn't arrived at the shop that Tamiya are recommending XF71 for the cockpit, instead of their usual colour; although this is listed as IJN interior green, looking at a colour chart on my screen (always a dangerous occupation,) it looks a lot closer to the old Humbrol 90 than to 78. Edgar Edited December 5, 2009 by Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigsty Posted December 6, 2009 Share Posted December 6, 2009 90 was beige green; it's still listed (as far as I know) as beige green, but Humbrol have changed the formula (don't know when) so that it now matches Sky. According to a friend (today) the lid still shows original 90, but it isn't what's inside.Edgar I've found this too. The newer version is noticeably more blue than the hint-of-green that the old one had. I've got a load of old 90 sitting in front of me right now and it's definitely in the green corner of the spectrum, which makes me wonder how anyone thought it was suitable for the underside of aircraft! - which then leads to the thought that it may not be right for exterior finishes after all. After all the discussion my head is spinning and I'm still wondering ... - 90 (the original flavour) appears to be right for (some?) cockpit interiors - is 23 (or possibly even new, improved 90?) the right colour for undersides in the RAF dark green / dark earth / sky scheme? - and (the clincher for me) can anyone recommend the best colour for post-war Fleet Air Arm stuff (generally described as extra dark sea grey / sky)? I've used old 90 before, which I'm happy with, but would welcome a more precise match. Sorry to be obtuse but I can't see the wood (Humbrol 119) for the trees (Humbrol 117). Now ... olive drab, anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted December 6, 2009 Author Share Posted December 6, 2009 I have a colour card, "Extracted from B.S.381C:1971 Colours for specific purposes" of 210 Sky matt finish, which says that its "Approximate Munsell reference is 5GY 7/2." It also states "This colour is correlated with colour 5-059 (B.S.2660) and also corresponds to that formerly known as colour 9A of H.M.G. Aircraft series." I've found 9A, in the RAF Museum library, it's listed as Sky (9 is Sky Grey, incidentally,) and matches my card. I take this to mean that wartime and post-war Sky were supposed to be the same colour, up to, at least, 1971. So, if Humbrol have matched 90 to 210 Sky, it should be suitable for the same timescale. Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted December 6, 2009 Share Posted December 6, 2009 If you are having problem with Humbrol, you could try buying dedicated hobby paints such as Xtracolour, Colourcoats or Precision Paints (now Phoenix, or something similar....). These are specifically designed to match the requisite colour, rather than being intended for a wider use. That's not to say that they'll all agree precisely, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigsty Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Yaay! Thank you all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennings Heilig Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Try Norman castles. Bloody Normans... Okay, off the obtuse Monty Python references and back to the subject at hand. Speaking (as I think I'm safe in doing here) for all of us on the left side of the Atlantic where Humbrol hasn't been seen since at least the administration of Jimmy Carter, if not Gerald Ford or even Richard Nixon, what the hell colo(u - if you must)r is Humbrol 90??????? J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigsty Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 RTFT! It's billed as "beige green" but is actually a slightly green version of Sky. Humbrol also offered what we old duffers used to call "duck egg blue" as no.23 in their range. This thread has just about established that, with 90 being reformulated to look more blue than green, the two colours are now practically one and the same and are suitable for any UK colour scheme that calls for Sky as opposed to Sky Grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 (edited) what the hell colo(u - if you must)r is Humbrol 90???????J As I already posted above, the older tin of 90 I tested is almost identical to FS 34672. As others have posted it is - or was - described as "Beige Green" by Humbrol. AM Sky is usually reported to be close to FS 34424 and certainly the approximate Munsell values given for the B.S.381c Sky, which hover around 5 GY 7/2, equate closely to this FS value. Du Pont 71-021 Sky Type S Grey is 10 GY 8/1 which is closer to FS 25622 and Humbrol 23 Duck Egg Blue. The actual difference calculations are as follows where <2.0 = a close match:- 5 GY 7/2 to FS 34424 = 1.87 (this is AM Sky) 5 GY 7/2 to FS 34672 = 8.14 (this demonstrates how far AM Sky is from the original Humbrol 90) FS 34424 to FS 34672 = 9.43 (this demonstrates how far AM Sky is from the original Humbrol 90) 10 GY 8/1 to FS 25622 = 1.50 (this is US Duck Egg Blue) 10 GY 8/1 to 5 GY 7/2 = 7.60 (this demonstrates how far US Duck Egg Blue is from AM Sky) FS 34424 to FS 25622 = 11.1 (this demonstrates how far US Duck Egg Blue is from AM Sky) HTH N Edited December 8, 2009 by Nick Millman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 RTFT! It's billed as "beige green" but is actually a slightly green version of Sky. Humbrol also offered what we old duffers used to call "duck egg blue" as no.23 in their range. This thread has just about established that, with 90 being reformulated to look more blue than green, the two colours are now practically one and the same and are suitable for any UK colour scheme that calls for Sky as opposed to Sky Grey. No, the old Humbrol "beige green" I tested was yellower and brighter than Sky rather than greener. Humbrol 23 was/is closer to the US Duck Egg Blue manufactured by Du Pont and others - see comparison calculations above. Until I get a chance to compare new tins of these colours I cannot comment on their current appearances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennings Heilig Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 (edited) 10 GY 8/1 to FS 25622 = 1.50 (this is US Duck Egg Blue) Two items for the record: 1. There are no names associated with FS595 colors. Any that are used are strictly unofficial. That's why we came up with the five digit numbering system. You guys name them, we number them. Just like airplanes. Only you number your cars and we name them. Go figure. 2. Americans have no clue what color duck eggs are. Apparently it's an English thing J Edited December 8, 2009 by Jennings Heilig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 Two items for the record:1. There are no names associated with FS595 colors. Any that are used are strictly unofficial. That's why we came up with the five digit numbering system. You guys name them, we number them. Just like airplanes. Only you number your cars and we name them. Go figure. 2. Americans have no clue what color duck eggs are. Apparently it's an English thing J 1. Er, I do know that (although strictly speaking the second digit refers to broad colour groups with named descriptions). "US Duck Egg Blue" was used in my post and the context of this thread only - to distinguish it from AM Sky but several US factory paint drawings (e.g. Grumman, Douglas, Boeing) also refer to "Duck Egg Blue" - ergo "US Duck Egg Blue". 2. Really? You guys always give the impression of knowing that duck egg blue is light gray. N Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennings Heilig Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 As I already posted above, the older tin of 90 I tested is almost identical to FS 34672. As others have posted it is - or was - described as "Beige Green" by Humbrol. 34672, really? In my 595 fan deck that's more of what I'd call extremely pale whitish-green. The photos that Edgar has posted of this "new" "correct" Spitfire interior color on un-restored seats, etc appears to be a much darker, much greener color. Now I'm really confused. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted December 9, 2009 Author Share Posted December 9, 2009 1. There are no names associated with FS595 colors. Any that are used are strictly unofficial. That's why we came up with the five digit numbering system. You guys name them, we number them. Just like airplanes. Only you number your cars and we name them. Go figure.2. Americans have no clue what color duck eggs are. Apparently it's an English thing 1/. British colours were/are named and numbered, e.g. during the war Sky was 9a, postwar it was 210. The B.S. system is similar to that of the U.S.; 1-- = blue, 2-- = green, 3-- = yellow + cream + buff, 4-- = brown + pink, 5-- = red + orange, 6-- = grey, 7-- = violet. 2/. Now, here's a radical thought (came to me while I was reading the relevant A.M.O.) Until all paints became smooth, Sky is always referred to as "duck-egg blue (Sky Type "S")" Note that duck-egg blue has no capitals, inferring that it isn't a name, so what if it is a simple description, and blue = Sky, while Type "S" = duck-egg. Check a duck egg, and you'll find that it has a smooth, satin-like surface; nowadays you'll find semi-matt finishes being labelled "eggshell," so why isn't it possible that the wartime smooth was listed as "duck egg?" Yes, I know that Sky was green, not blue, but some twit labelled the Spitfire seat as "Bakelite," causing years of aggravation, so why not misname a colour? Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Kiker Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Hi all, I am really enjoying the back and forth on this thread, and I thank all of you for the various inputs. While I'm not trying to hijack the thread out of the "Sky' discussion, I do have a related question regarding the wheel wells of Spitfires early in the war. Spitfire I's had silver painted undersides before the start of the war, including the wheel wells. At one period the undersides were repainted in white and black (informal terms, there), split down the centerline. Am I correct to assume that the when the repaint was done, the wheel wells on each side were also repainted? Or did they remain in silver? This question pertains to a PR I project I'm working on. The first two PR I's received Camotint overall (I'm satisfied on that score, not trying to open yet another can of worms...). I have pictures that indicate the insides of the landing gear struts and the wheels were left in white/black, but I am not sure of the interior of the wheel wells themselves. Thanks in advance for any assistance! Cheers, Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennings Heilig Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Check a duck egg, and you'll find that it has a smooth, satin-like surface; nowadays you'll find semi-matt finishes being labelled "eggshell," so why isn't it possible that the wartime smooth was listed as "duck egg?" Yes, I know that Sky was green, not blue, but some twit labelled the Spitfire seat as "Bakelite," causing years of aggravation, so why not misname a colour? Is that a European swallow or an African swallow? AAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted December 9, 2009 Author Share Posted December 9, 2009 More of a gulp. Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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