faa colours

[cossack52]

can someone please help;am not very familiar with faa aircraft.i'm building the trumpeter swordfish,as the 1941 ark royal aircraft of 820 sqdn.trumpeter give the upper colours as dark sea grey/dark green.is this correct,or should they be slate grey/dk grey,or slate grey/dk green?

[Steven Eisenman]

Perhaps that the Chinese translation of Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark Slate Grey.

[cossack52]

Perhaps that the Chinese translation of Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark Slate Grey.

so should the colours be dk sea grey/slate grey?

[Andrew Jones]

As a biplane the colours should be EDSG/Dark Slate Grey on upper surfaces with the top surfaces of the lower wings shadow shaded in DSG/Slate grey

[iang]

And the under-surface colour of 820/2P:L2826 was most likely Sky-Grey

[cossack52]

And the under-surface colour of 820/2P:L2826 was most likely Sky-Grey

thankyou very much to both of you,stefan

[Lightningboy2000]

Mmmm would Humbrol provide equivalent colors for these as i'm doing the same thing, plus arent the same colors used on the pacific Firefly and the upper surfaces of the Blackburn Roc?

[Steven Eisenman]

so should the colours be dk sea grey/slate grey?

EDSG/DSG. Extra Dark and Dark

As for shadow shading on the lower surfaces, this may have been done away with by 1941, unless the aircraft was unpainted earlier shadow scheme. This gets to be mighty iffy.

[Andrew Jones]

EDSG/DSG. Extra Dark and Dark

As for shadow shading on the lower surfaces, this may have been done away with by 1941, unless the aircraft was unpainted earlier shadow scheme. This gets to be mighty iffy.

As you say Steve this is a bit of an "iffy" area, but shadow shading for naval biplanes is still specified in AMO864/44 dated 7/9/44, also in the july 1987 issue of SAM ,Ian Huntley publishes much of his research used for the repainting of the royal Navy historic flight Swordfish LS326.

This Blackburn built aircraft had been completely refurbished the previous year and Ian had been approached with the intent of making the colour scheme as authentic as possible. The aircraft was to be painted in the EDSG/ DSG/ White scheme used on Mac ships in late 1943 to 1944 just after the change of undersurface colour from Sky type S to white. To quote from Mr Huntley "Suprisingly the system of painting the upper surfaces of the lower mainplanes in dark sea grey and light slate grey was still very much in force, so that painting biplanes was quite a complicated affair".

I believe that shadow shading was seen on aircraft such as the Walrus right up until the end of the war.

Andrew

[thx6667]

As for shadow shading on the lower surfaces, this may have been done away with by 1941, unless the aircraft was unpainted earlier shadow scheme. This gets to be mighty iffy.

A trawl through the FAA archives Yeovilton over the years has shown it to still be quite common right up to the end of the war.

[iang]

One of the main motivations for the introduction of TSS between September 1940 and March 1941 was the rationalisation of paint production and application, with a view to lessening the time aircraft spend in the paint shop. It should be seen as an accompanying strategy, introduced by Beaverbrook when he took over as Minister of Aircraft Production, to the concentration on the production of 'types that could make a difference' (I believe there was eight aircraft types in this list - but this is from memory, so may be incorrect).

To this end, the AM orders concerning the introduction of TSS in August/September 1940 are clear that it was based upon just three colours, not five as had been the case with S1E. Moreover, at the same time, handed camouflage patterns were to be abandoned, with manufacturers adopting one pattern. The position concerning FAA biplanes is not as clear-cut as this because AM orders continue to refer to a 5 colour scheme for a while and it is known that instructions were sent out in error to manufacturers to prepare handed camouflage patterns. The text of these orders is reproduced in my book and at best they are ambiguous. There is little surviving evidence to evaluate how these orders were interpreted by manufacturers, but Ian Huntley maintains that both shadow shading and handed patterns were used by Blackburn. However, this is based on his discovery of Blackburn painting diagrams that incorporate these features. This in itself is not surprising because, certainly with respect to handed patterns, all manufacturers were asked (erroneously) to prepare new handed painting diagrams before this instruction was countermanded. Moreover, it is not clear to me whether these instructions were later revoked as the strategic situation improved and the necessity for minimising production time gradually eased.

However, all this is an interesting aside with respect to 2P:L2826, as it was Fairey produced (and originally finished in Cerrux Grey and aluminium dope) and had been with 810 squadron since (at least) March 1940. It would have been camouflaged by squadron personnel in July or early August 1939 to scheme S1E. AMOs and CAFOs required that shadow shading was applied to the lower main plane and area in shadow on the fuselage under the main plane. It is probably safe to assume that these instructions were followed. The camouflage to the fin/rudder was modified in October 1940 when the rectangular fin flash was introduced and the code was moved from the fin to the fuselage. Initially, at least, these codes were not black (probably either MSG or blue), but by the time of the Bismarck action they may have been repainted in black, thinly outlined in white. There is an outside possibility that the under surfaces could have been repainted in Sky sometime between October and March 1941, but in my view, the surviving photos of L2826 do not show any of the usual signs of repainting (lack of serial, high straight demarcation between upper and lower surface colours etc).

Edited October 18, 2009 by iang

[Steven Eisenman]

Even though I did not pose the question, I appreciate all the information. I cannot remember it being discussed on the major forums that the five colour scheme remained til near the very end. Ah yes, ambiguity in directives and practice and specs that may have not been followed.

iang, could you please identify your book?

[iang]

Steven,

Fleet Air Arm Camouflage and Markings: Atlantic and Mediterraean Theatres, 1937-41 (Stuart Lloyd, Dalrymple and Verdun Publishing 2008). Stuart Lloyd is a pseudonym.

I hope it's sitting on your self aready!

IanG

Edited October 18, 2009 by iang

[tonyot]

I`d also like to add that a photo of this aircraft shows it to have the codes applied under the upper wing tips in quite large style!!

Whatever you do don`t opt for the other scheme in the box which is supposed to depict Eugene Esmonde`s aircraft because it is seriously WRONG!!!!

Cheers

Tony

[Steven Eisenman]

Steven,

Fleet Air Arm Camouflage and Markings: Atlantic and Mediterraean Theatres, 1937-41 (Stuart Lloyd, Dalrymple and Verdun Publishing 2008). Stuart Lloyd is a pseudonym.

I hope it's sitting on your self aready!

IanG

Not yet. But I found a reasonably priced copy in the US. Not good distribution here.

[Julien]

Mmmm would Humbrol provide equivalent colors for these as i'm doing the same thing, plus arent the same colors used on the pacific Firefly and the upper surfaces of the Blackburn Roc?

Humbrol Extra Dark Sea Grey = HU123, Dark Slate Grey = HU224, Dark Sea Grey HU164= & Slate Grey = HU031

As for the Underside colour Sky Grey this is not to be confused with RAF Sky, IPMS Stockholm give FAA Sky Grey as 3*Hu:34 + 2*Hu:126

I used these humbrol colours on my Seafox and it looked OK to me;

Julien

[Jim Kiker]

Hi Ian and all,

I have a Swordfish in my stash and it has always been destined to become one of the Bismark a/c. Still I had thought, until now, that it would get the "standard" three color TSS scheme. So this information is new to me. If I understand you correctly, it really should be done in the five-color scheme. Correct? I rather like the standard TSS, but if it's not historically correct for these a/c, then it will just have to go on another model. Either way, thanks in advance for assisting with the correct information.

Cheers, Jim

[iang]

Jim,

Both could be correct.

Victorious:

All Blackburn built except one Fairey built. The Blackburn aircraft in TSS and Fairey in S1E

Ark Royal:

Mainly Fairey built, though at least one Blackburn built.

Mark Horan and I have a book nearly complete on Coastal Command and FAA attacks on Bismarck, including details of all codes and known serials.

Hi Ian and all,

I have a Swordfish in my stash and it has always been destined to become one of the Bismark a/c. Still I had thought, until now, that it would get the "standard" three color TSS scheme. So this information is new to me. If I understand you correctly, it really should be done in the five-color scheme. Correct? I rather like the standard TSS, but if it's not historically correct for these a/c, then it will just have to go on another model. Either way, thanks in advance for assisting with the correct information.

Cheers, Jim

[AnonymousFO98]

Hi Ian and all,

I have a Swordfish in my stash and it has always been destined to become one of the Bismark a/c. Still I had thought, until now, that it would get the "standard" three color TSS scheme. So this information is new to me. If I understand you correctly, it really should be done in the five-color scheme. Correct? I rather like the standard TSS, but if it's not historically correct for these a/c, then it will just have to go on another model. Either way, thanks in advance for assisting with the correct information.

Cheers, Jim

Hi Jim

me too

intended to do the aircraft flown by Percy Gick 825 NAS, HMS Victorious (5F iirc)

if you or anyone else have any knowledge of the serial number would be very grateful.

[iang]

Gick was indeed flying 5F from Victorious. I don't know the serial (though we have Gick's account of his attack). In fact, we've found very few serials from Victorious. We've done much better identifying Ark Royal's Swordfish.

Gick's Swordfish was definitely Blackburn built and as such would have had the distinctive camouflage pattern applied to all early Blackburn built Swordfish. Only Houston was flying a Fairey built aircraft from Victorious.

Where the code was carried is also another unknown with respect to 825 Squadron Swordfish. Probably only the individual letter of the code was carried (there would be no need for the '5' as there were no other TBR Squadrons embarked).

To my knowledge there are only 3 published photos of Victorious' Swordfish during the Bismarck episode. The well-known photo of the Swordfish squadron on the flight-deck, a photo that shows a single Swordfish taking off over the bows and a photo of a Swordfish after a landing accident. I own a photograph album of a crew member of Victorious that includes all three of these and another unpublished photo of a Swordfish from this period, along with a photo of one of her 800z Squadron Fulmars. I've studied this photo and the published photo of the Swordfish after a landing accident and can see no evidence of any code whatsoever. My best guess from the well-known photo of the squadron on the flight-deck, would be single letter codes on the fin in red, but even with a first generation print, the resolution is not good enough to be sure. All the Admiralty documents refer to individual 825 squadron aircraft by their code (5x) rather than serial, so it seems certain that codes were carried.

If anyone has any other information I'd be very interested.

[AnonymousFO98]

Thanks for that Ian

There are a few 825 sqn serials available from a book whose name and author i forget

i made a note of some of them but of course now can't find it

[Fea]

Ayup All...

Would the colours for Biplanes be relevant for the Walrusses on HMS Warspite prior to D-Day please ?

[Edgar]

Allegedly;-