Spad Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 for what it's worth - a blue outline (and a great pic for it's age!) http://www.aviation-picture-hangar.co.uk/xm174_56.jpg cheers Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 They tend to blend into the NMF. Yes they do to a certain extent. They are though still very apparent - on the photo's in various publications I've just spent the last hour or so looking at! I can't find the photo to which Edgar and Paul is referring to - and thats very frustrating!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousER99 Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Not meaning to hijack the thread here but when did David Hannant fly Lightnings??!! The guy on the right looks like a younger taller David to me. Oh and FWIW, I see the blue outline as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Not meaning to hijack the thread here but when did David Hannant fly Lightnings??!! The guy on the right looks like a younger taller David to me. Oh and FWIW, I see the blue outline as well. Apparently thats Squadron Leader "Hank" Martin. I always thought that he looked like Alan Freeman* ("not 'arf!!") *Alan Freeman was a Radio DJ here in the UK. An Aussie by birth I beleive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousA667 Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Your wish is my command. peebeep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousER99 Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Oh man that is a sexy picture!! Thanks for posting Paul!! I have this sudden urge.......must resist.......TU-22 on the bench!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousA667 Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 (edited) That's less than half the original image Mike, the whole picture has red tails going to the horizon! Well eleven of them anyhow. We could do with a 'woody' emoticon! peebeep Edited October 7, 2009 by peebeep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 (edited) Thanks Paul AND Edgar - you must have posted at the same time as I posted this...Same photo - different book maybe? What IS apparent on both pic's is the surround. It is a very pale blue - no doubt about it - but its there! You can make blue out in the photo I've scanned in - honestly!!! Given this and the other photo's posted - 56 Sqn's F1a's and T4 most certainly DID have blue surrounds to their red/white chequers. Eduard's decal sheet has NO surround whatsover....and thats where it is wrong. Edited October 7, 2009 by Bill Clark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XV107 Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 FWIW - and it's probably my dodgy eyes - if you look at the black & white photos of 56 Sqn aircraft in Vol 1 of Stewart Scott's Lightning magnum opus, the surround seems to stand out rather more clearly than on the colour photos (although, of course, if you didn't know that the surround was light blue, you'd be puzzling over the colour for a while). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Okay...here's my Trump Card!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHREAK Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Not meaning to hijack the thread here but when did David Hannant fly Lightnings??!! The guy on the right looks like a younger taller David to me. Oh and FWIW, I see the blue outline as well. I see your blue outline Mike but I also see a photograph which has a blue tint to it particularly apparent on the NMF on both a/c. In my opinion, this evidence can't be conclusive as it could well be in the type of film/filter/processing/sky to name but a few influencing factors. It's more than likely to be white at a guess......but hey. what do I know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousA667 Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 They're the same images Bill, I cropped mine to make the nose markings more obvious. I've scrutinised the print at close quarters and there's absolutely no hint of blue surrounding the checks, but another image in the book of XM176 airborne shows the border reasonably clearly. peebeep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHREAK Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Okay...here's my Trump Card!!!!! Ouch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousER99 Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Is it possible that SOME aircraft had it while others didn't? Could it have been added at different dates or even on a few select jets for a special exercise or temporary duty somewhere?? Just speculating. I know that most US jets while similar, you can usually pick out differences from one airframe to another all the way down the flightline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousA667 Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Is it possible that SOME aircraft had it while others didn't? Could it have been added at different dates That's my opinion. I've been looking at the scans under extreme magnification and there's no blue tones from the image from the Ian Black book or the monograph that Bill posted. Obviously it would be better if you could examine the negs (or slides if they were from trannies) and as Bill points out the decals are still wrong, because the checks have no border at all. peebeep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 They're the same images Bill, I cropped mine to make the nose markings more obvious. I've scrutinised the print at close quarters and there's absolutely no hint of blue surrounding the checks, but another image in the book of XM176 airborne shows the border reasonably clearly.peebeep Okay Paul, but what about the other photo's? Are you saying that they aren't pale blue? I "know" that the surround to 56 Sqn's markings is pale blue - because its well documented*, and its what I've always understood to be the case - and has been since I first got my hands on Modeldecal sheet No 1 nearly forty years ago (when I was 2!!!). Blind faith? Rose (or pale blue?) tinted specta-cack-les? Maybe then, but I've shown here that blue was the colour. The blue is very very pale and grey-ish - certainly paler than on the F3 and F6 maybe, but it is blue. I've shown in 3 or 4 photo's (I've lost count!) that this is the case - I can scan in more - but what more evidence does anyone want? I see your pic of the T4 and the others and I know it is pale blue - because thats what it should be. Do I discount my beliefs and trust in documented evidence on frankly a poor copy of ONE (nearly) 50 year old photo? Did Eduard base their decal sheet on ONE photo? On this ONE photo? * Lightning Squadrons of the Royal Air Force - Richard L Ward (Mr Modeldecal) p. 44 " The large pale-blue outlined red and white nose chequers...." * Wings of Fame Vol 7 p 95 "....with large Red and White nose checker (sic) thinly outlined in pale blue (eight full checks ahead, two aft) flanking the roundel..." * Lightning - Ian Allan Special - Roger Lindsay p.39 "...Red and White chequerboards markings, thinly outlined in pale blue, and positioned assymetrically with four sets forward of the roundel and one set aft" * Fighting Colours RAF fighter camouflage & markings 1937-1975 - Michael F F Bowyer, p.176 "........56 Sqn's aircraft had red and white nose markings outlined with a half inch wide light blue line. The squadron's "firebird" emblem was painted on the fin in a pale blue disc. (This referred to 1961 and operation "Matador") * Modeldecal set No 1 * Modeldecal set No 99 (Lightnings No 56 Sqn) * The Airfix 1/48th scale decal sheet! * Cutting Edge decal sheet CED 48076 and CED 72076 "EE(BAC) Lightning" XM177/"A" * Xtradecal decal sheet "EE(BAC) Lightning XM174/"D" I stated earlier that Eduard's decal sheet is wrong. It has NO surround to 56 Sqn's chequerboards - it plainly SHOULD have. So there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 Is it possible that SOME aircraft had it while others didn't? Could it have been added at different dates or even on a few select jets for a special exercise or temporary duty somewhere??Just speculating. I know that most US jets while similar, you can usually pick out differences from one airframe to another all the way down the flightline. I also considered that, and that is a possiblilty - but clearly each and every photo shows a surround. Documentation listed earlier states that this WAS blue. Not white, but blue - albeit a very pale blue. It was blue on 56 Sqn's Hunters and Canberra's (and maybe their Swifts and Meteor's?) It was a squadron colour - just as much as the red and the white was (though it didn't appear on the Phantom, nor I don't think, the Tornado F3). All colour photo's (all a few years old now!) that I've posted and seen in all of the books show the surround to be very pale - some are more paler than others, some show the blue fading into the natural metal - rendering it almost invisible. Monochrome photo's show the surround better in some instances. There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever showing that the Lightnings DIDN'T have this surround. It may have faded to a very bleached pale blue-grey and thats maybe what we are seeing in that photo, but it WAS there -the line up of The Firebirds show this..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousA667 Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Bill, I have never in any of my posts said that I don't think the checks were never bordered with pale blue, quite clearly - and I have stated myself that I have photos to show - blue borders were carried. What I am saying is that the specific photos above do not clearly demonstrate that there is a blue border, so either there is something wrong with the prints or you might have to accept that actually what the picture shows is how they looked at that moment in time when the shutter clicked on the camera. I have an open mind on it and I don't have any blinkers on that force me to go along with a notion that I've held for a long time. If you sincerely believe that they always had blue borders I don't have a problem with that, but I don't see why you should have a problem with me keeping an open mind on the subject when I have a photo in my possession that appears to show something else. I'd quite happily build a model with the white or blue border because on the evidence that I have either is applicable. peebeep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Bill, I have never in any of my posts said that I don't think the checks were never bordered with pale blue, quite clearly - and I have stated myself that I have photos to show - blue borders were carried. What I am saying is that the specific photos above do not clearly demonstrate that there is a blue border, so either there is something wrong with the prints or you might have to accept that actually what the picture shows is how they looked at that moment in time when the shutter clicked on the camera. I have an open mind on it and I don't have any blinkers on that force me to go along with a notion that I've held for a long time. If you sincerely believe that they always had blue borders I don't have a problem with that, but I don't see why you should have a problem with me keeping an open mind on the subject when I have a photo in my possession that appears to show something else. I'd quite happily build a model with the white or blue border because on the evidence that I have either is applicable. peebeep Fair enough Paul, Its white!! I'm off to bed!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dambuster Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 peebeep Is it just me or do fin letters L, H, N all have red centres outlined in white and not black centres? As regards the blue outline - I also have this photo and it seems to be overexposed - there is definately an outline there and I support Bill in this. Sorry pebeep. After all, just because I have a Black and White photo of a 1939 RAF Spitfire where the outer ring on the fuselage roundel appears black doesn't mean that it was black - I accept the wisdom that it was Yellow and the film transposed the hues - even when I have a photo in my possession that appears to show something else. Cheers Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamS Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Obviously it would be better if you could examine the negs (or slides if they were from trannies) and as Bill points out the decals are still wrong, because the checks have no border at all.peebeep Are you suggesting that some of the aircrew were cross dressers? Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Is it just me or do fin letters L, H, N all have red centres outlined in white and not black centres? Peter Hmmm...I'd always assumed that the black centres were thinner on L,H & N than on K, or X................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thx6667 Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 I'm with Bill here, while its not clear what colour the outline is to the checquers in that photo (for a variety of lighting/camera/film stock reasons), there is an outline, and give that the outline was very thin and the pale blue was very pale, I'd say its most likely to be pale blue in that pic, albeit just very washed out. Lightning conditions tell only half a story, that's how Italeri ended up with a desert pink Jaguar T.2! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousA667 Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 As regards the blue outline - I also have this photo and it seems to be overexposed - there is definately an outline there and I support Bill in this. Sorry pebeep. After all, just because I have a Black and White photo of a 1939 RAF Spitfire where the outer ring on the fuselage roundel appears black doesn't mean that it was black - I accept the wisdom that it was Yellow and the film transposed the hues - even when I have a photo in my possession that appears to show something else. I said above I've got an open mind on the matter. Never mind, I won't comment any further, Bill asked for the picture and I obliged. peebeep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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