AnonymousAA72 Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Right, from the off-set.....IF I'm about to suck the pleasure out of your hobby, read no further....... For those that do want to know what I've found, then read on - you can then decide what, if anything, you want to do with this information!!! I never planned on modelling Trumpy's Lightning, I have an Echelon F6 waiting for its slot in the paint shop, and another yet to be started - BUT, thanks to the generosity of someone on here - I had one delivered to me last week. I have been critical of the kit - and shame on me - this was based on photo's of the plastic and the built model. With the kit in hand I could give it a better once over, using whatever books/plans I had. Now, I make no claims that what I've found, from these various sources, or what I'm about to find as I build this model are 100% correct(!), its just my interpretation of that info. I had to hand Echelons instructions and a 1/32nd scale side view of the fuselage. This kit is acknowledged by most, as being incredibly accurate - and it certainly looks like it. The side view matches the plastic in the Echelon kit, so I'm assuming that its correct. Any amendments I make will be based on that initially.... First of all a general shot of the fuselage half against the plan... Immediatelly apparent is that Trumpy's fuselage is TOO SHORT!!! By approx 5mm. This photo was with the rear end lined up... Also noticeable here is the gap at the cockpit sill and windscreen...which goes some way to explaining the rake of the windscreen and the bulbous nature of the canopy maybe? Moving the fuselage half forward then everything lines up quite nicely! AND.. the reason the inatke ring is so deep? To compensate for the short fuselage!! Moving on..... The fin! Its too small!!! I've lined this up against the rear end of the fin, and this shows (a) the fin is too high, (b.) the intake is too large and of course (c.) the fin is too small! Luckily t hough, this discepancy seems to be at the rear end. The rudder is too small - I reckon that this could be corrected by removing the part of the spine at the front (which is too high anyway) and adding a section of plastic card to the rear. Comments have been made about the undercarriage units....they are too long! Here's the white metal leg The kits strakes are poorly shaped and at the wrong angle. The forward edge should be higher up the belly tank. The Firestreaks and Red Tops look really nice!! Thats all the pic's for now. I'll most likely continue this as an "In Progress" build...so if you want to know how I attempted a fix - it'll be there!!! Will I chop the fuselage up and add a 5mm spacer? Most likely!!! Also.....I've not had a chance to see how accurate the wings or tailplanes are, BUT initial thoughts are (and based on my being built Echelon F6) that they seem quite accurate. The wings have no discernible leading edge kinks - a little gentle bending of the wings should solve that! The belly tank is far too big. I'm going to reduce that by bending the plastic inwards and removing a sliver so that it fits the other side okay! The Aden cannon bulge is far too big!!! Not had a chance to assess the cockpit or seat yet!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousFO98 Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Hi Bill I used to think you were a gent and a scholar. But on reflection I now see you are are throttling that poor, cute little kitten ( ) So cruel and heartless. How do you sleep at night? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Excellent stuff! Do you reckon that the 5mm spacer should be added to the fuselage in line with the edge of the cutout for the belly tank? Also I'll be interested how you plan to deal with the "holes" that festoon this kit. Regards, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunpowder17 Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Fantastic Bill. The fuselage being 5mm short explains alot. Its a shame as when built theres something that just doesnt look right. Ive tried but mine will probably sit around unfinished for quite a while. You really cant beat the Echelon one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avro683 Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 I presume that these shortcomings apply to the F1a as well. If that's the case fair enough but I will build mine OOB apart from possibly the seat and keep the results to myself. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted September 25, 2009 Author Share Posted September 25, 2009 Excellent stuff! Do you reckon that the 5mm spacer should be added to the fuselage in line with the edge of the cutout for the belly tank?Also I'll be interested how you plan to deal with the "holes" that festoon this kit. Regards, Andy Hi Andy, The spacer will be in front of the belly tank cutout - in between some panel lines so its relatively simple to hide the plug (thats the current pan anyway!) I can then add the cannon pack forward and add an additional spacer at the join. As for the holes - plan is to scribe and deepen the panel lines I want to keep and give it repetitive coats of Halford primer - sanding down inbetween! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted September 25, 2009 Author Share Posted September 25, 2009 Fantastic Bill. The fuselage being 5mm short explains alot. Its a shame as when built theres something that just doesnt look right. Ive tried but mine will probably sit around unfinished for quite a while.You really cant beat the Echelon one! An additional problem is the lack of depth to the canopy sill. This makes the canopy look to bulbous, additionally the spine is too straight -its too high at the fin end and too low at the canopy end. I'm going to raise the level of the canopy sill and windscreen, and see what effect that has. In all honesty you can probably ignore the 5mm - but raising the sill and altering the spine and fin will help. Another thing I've noticed - the antennae pack in the spine is a bit too far aft.... I presume that these shortcomings apply to the F1a as well. If that's the case fair enough but I will build mine OOB apart from possibly the seat and keep the results to myself.Tony I don't know Tony, though I think I'll get myself one day soon....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted September 25, 2009 Author Share Posted September 25, 2009 Hi BillI used to think you were a gent and a scholar. But on reflection I now see you are are throttling that poor, cute little kitten ( ) So cruel and heartless. How do you sleep at night? Alfie? He's okay - he survived!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonofjim Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 (edited) thanks for the info so fay bill got my frightening today in the post wahooo its a lovley kit but i want to make her nice n accurate i picked up on a lot of what you said , earlier today myself so i'm watching with interest like you said earlier though if anyones not too bothered about these fixes feel free to simply enjoy the kit it certaily still looks everybit like a lightning f2a/f6 Edited September 25, 2009 by sonofjim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousFO98 Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Alfie is a beauty But where did you put the insert? Won't be having a 1/32 Lightning Bill but look forward to seeing the solutions - never know when a similar fix will be needed elsewhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gishuk Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 im thinking of building one of these myself sometime as i really like lightnings in the later grey scheme especially, so im keen to see how hard work it is to fix these issues and how much better it looks with them done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turnerdad Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 (edited) I know "rivet counters" come in for alot of stick but I love 'em, as long as the "rivet counting" is directed towards the actual unbuilt kit like this, rather than someones pride and joy so THANKYOU for your work!!! Lets us know what is wrong with a kit, how serious it is and what options there are for fixing it. Then we can decide whether it warrants fixing in our opinion. As someone who is considering getting and building this kit it is hugely useful. Pity Trumpy didn't have a copy of the Echelon plans-they could really do wth lurking at sites like this and asking questions! Still, looks like a decent kit though I'd have to fix the belly tank, does look a little too pregnant. Cheers Edited September 25, 2009 by turnerdad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Ogilvie Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Well said that man! Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 interesting but hardly surprised i have been involved with research and consultation for a few well known aviation diecast companies[no not corgi] i was over in germany at the toyfair in feb this year and went along to the trumpeter stand and asked one of the staff about research etc i was surprised they dont have anyone that carries this out but just their own staff who use a book,photographs etc. now i cross reference all my material. i did actually recieve several emails from trumpeter the most recent some scans of the 32nd two seat typhie decals could'nt believe the ammount of spelling and colour errors and was quite willing to sort it out for them but i guess when you mention a fee of some sorts they get cold feet. this seems to be the way of the chinese companies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AAbshier Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Right, from the off-set.....IF I'm about to suck the pleasure out of your hobby, read no further....... No, actually I appreciate your work, because I'm about to get going on a 1/32nd Lightning F1A or F3 (still deciding on variant and markings). The fuselage stretch doesn't look too hard, if it's done at a constant-section point. Looks like what I had to do to the Anigrand B-32. Fixing the metal struts looks intimidating; I may go with the plastic ones in that case. SHAMELESS SOLICITATION WARNING Question: does the kit include both the short and long cable ducts? If you're building an F2A, I could use your unused long ducts for my F3, if I decide to go that way. I can also use extra Red Top or Firestreak markings so that I can decal two of the same missile, instead of one each; I can send my extras to you. Andy Alton IL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted September 25, 2009 Author Share Posted September 25, 2009 No, actually I appreciate your work, because I'm about to get going on a 1/32nd Lightning F1A or F3 (still deciding on variant and markings). The fuselage stretch doesn't look too hard, if it's done at a constant-section point. Looks like what I had to do to the Anigrand B-32. Fixing the metal struts looks intimidating; I may go with the plastic ones in that case.SHAMELESS SOLICITATION WARNING Question: does the kit include both the short and long cable ducts? If you're building an F2A, I could use your unused long ducts for my F3, if I decide to go that way. I can also use extra Red Top or Firestreak markings so that I can decal two of the same missile, instead of one each; I can send my extras to you. Andy Alton IL Hi Andy, Yes it has the extended cable ducts - I will be using them though - I'm building the F6 - probably XR753/"A" of 23Sqn in Nat.Metal with white fin and spine......give me a chance to play with some Alclad!!! The cable duct shouldn't be that difficult to source - Evergreen must do "D" section plastic rod? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted September 25, 2009 Author Share Posted September 25, 2009 Right, from the off-set.....IF I'm about to suck the pleasure out of your hobby, read no further....... For those that do want to know what I've found, then read on - you can then decide what, if anything, you want to do with this information!!! Can I just add here.....I shouldn't have really started the thread off with that!!! It could be seen as being a bit inflamatory, given the recent flames on here regarding JMN's/RC's/Numptys/LMS's etc.... I stand by the second sentence though!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousFO98 Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Bill, You are a gent and a scholar after all! Not that we really thought any different The caveat was plain for all to see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousER99 Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 Excellent review Bill. I like how you back up your issues objectively and with proof. I do have to ask though, how do we know Echelons plans are accurate? Someone had to ask right? Might as well be the smart a$$ American!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted September 25, 2009 Author Share Posted September 25, 2009 Excellent review Bill. I like how you back up your issues objectively and with proof. I do have to ask though, how do we know Echelons plans are accurate? Someone had to ask right? Might as well be the smart a$$ American!! I'll let Edgar or Ted Taylor answer that one Mike!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousER99 Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 I'll let Edgar or Ted Taylor answer that one Mike!!! Notice the smiley!! I was kidding gents!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted September 25, 2009 Author Share Posted September 25, 2009 Notice the smiley!! I was kidding gents!! I saw it Mike, I'm sure Ted and Edgar will have seen it too!! The man behind Echelon was/is Frank Brown (a thoroughly nice man - rang him to ask about the availability of the Lightning a few years ago and we chatted for what it seems hours!!!). His research was much aided by Ted and Edgar - I seem to recall that the artwork and decals were from Dick Ward of Modeldecal fame! Revell of Germany used Echelon's Hunters (without permission alegedly!) for their Hunter. By all accounts Frank had contacted Trumpeter regarding supplying data to them, but had no reply..... AND the Echelon Lightning looks (nay...IS!!) spot on!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crobinsonh Posted September 25, 2009 Share Posted September 25, 2009 The big difference is that Frank/Ted/Edgar actually measured the 'real thing' unlike Trumpeter who have just 'guessed'. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AAbshier Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Hi Andy, Yes it has the extended cable ducts - I will be using them though - I'm building the F6 - probably XR753/"A" of 23Sqn in Nat.Metal with white fin and spine......give me a chance to play with some Alclad!!! The cable duct shouldn't be that difficult to source - Evergreen must do "D" section plastic rod? They do! I can scratch it, but was just hoping I could be "lazy". What about the missile markings? Any luck there? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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