WWII Part 1 GB POLAND TO DUNKIRK

[zero]

Next year sees the 70th Anniversary of Operation Dynamo, The evacuation from Dunkirk. The greatest Military withdrawal of troops underfire in history. Therefore in the fitting tradition of Britmodeller, this seems like an idea subject for a GB, I'll even be happy to suggest myself as a moderator for this one.

Dunkirk May 24th to 4th of june 1940

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dunkirk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dunkirk

This GB gives lots of options to build, ie British, French, and German Amour, Ships, and Aircraft at the very least.

As you might have gathered I have a special reason for raising this one as a GB (as well as it being an Ideal subject!) I.E. I hold a very rare honor of having not one, but both my Grandfathers at the Battle of Dunkirk, I also am very luck to say that both survived the war to live very long and happy lifes. Sadly neither are no longer with us anymore due to old age, but I count myself very lucky to have had both them survive this battle, and the war.

My mum's father Lance Cpl W Malyon was a regular, sent to the battle of france, and had to fight his way back to the beach to Escape (every time I see the film Dunkirk I'm reminded of him in John Miles, both were of very simular build!) not only did he escape, but also fought as a Desert Rat all the way through North africa and in to Italy.

My Dads Father Ended up there in a totally different way, He was a serving Fireman, and worked the Thames on the fireboat the Massey Shaw. He volunteered to crew the boat to france, and who knows, the two's paths could have even crossed (sadly I will never know) Sadly he would never talk of the war, but there again I can understand that, he saw and servered all through the blitz, and my father told me many a time of how he would walkout the door on one day, and he would return 3 or four days later, he was often asleep before his body hit the bed!

http://www.masseyshaw.org/MasseyShaw.html

http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/MasseyShawFireBoat.asp

So there's my reasons for the GB, but I still think it would be a good one for an all subjects build.

Dave

Edited September 21, 2009 by zero

[AnonymousDFB1]

Sounds like a good Idea Dave, as always if you can drum up the support we can run next year.

[Doug Rogers]

That could fit in nicely with a couple of Spitfire builds I've got scheduled, either Colin Grays' KL-N or Bob Stanford Tucks GR-P. Count me in.

[Grant]

That is a very Britmodellerish theme, with potential for all sorts of models.

Great idea, and respect for the inspiration.

cheers

Grant

[Antoine]

And then what about an operation Catapult GB?

Well, I don't care, I'm just kidding.

I'd just want to underscore that some parts of our common history are still a little bit touchy.

But now its just that: History.

And none of us can do anything about it. It just happened.

[zero]

And then what about an operation Catapult GB?

Well, I don't care, I'm just kidding.

I'd just want to underscore that some parts of our common history are still a little bit touchy.

But now its just that: History.

And none of us can do anything about it. It just happened.

Hi Antoine.

I'm well aware of how the french suffered under Hitler and the nazi's and no one likes to be on the losing side, even if it was just a battle, not the war. Operation Dynamo was a major success, thousands of british troops were saved, which in turn gave the allies a haven to start fighting back from. There is no doubt that if we had lost the the battle of britain the hopes for not just france and the UK, but the free world, would have been very gloomy.

I'm well aware of the sad history between France and England, and the acts of war between us for hunderds of year, and also the sinking of the french fleet to stop it falling in to German hands in may 1940.

http://www.digitalsurvivors.com/archives/c...frenchfleet.php

Sadly Desparate times, call for desparate means. however that always depends on what side of the fence you look from, doesn't it.

As you say, we can't change none of this, it history, good or bad. However Dynamo was a start, the Germans didn't take all of our troops prisoners, and as I'm sure your well aware many of your countrymen fled to britain to fight. Even your army's command struture operated from the UK whilst your country was occupied.

Dynamo was really the first time in the war, the Germans, had not had things go there own way, I'm also sure, having had so many escape the beaches, Hitler was well aware, there would be more ground forces awaiting him than just old men and children because of it, if he had won the Air War.

The GB was suggested as a celibration and a remembarance, not for the bad point of war, we still model German tanks, or Japanese Aircraft, yet they all killed people. the point of the GB was to remember all the troops (of all sides) and honor all those that did fight, and fall for there country (what ever coloured shirt they wore)

GB's open up history, and teach us, the horrors of war but also teach us history.they also also remind us, there is alway hope, hope that sometimes when the chips are down, the odds can be beaten, and right overcomes wrong.

IE how many people Under 20, are aware of the above sinking? only your post, and my Answer has made them aware of this sad action, be it needed, or pointess together we have reminded them of it.

Dave

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Why not drop Agincourt into the mix while we're at it! :shithappens:

Dynamo sounds like a good idea for a GB to me, but wouldn't it kind of cross over with the proposed Blitzkrieg GB?

Just a thought, all the best

Andy S.

Edited September 19, 2009 by Sgt.Squarehead

[zero]

Why not drop Agincourt into the mix while we're at it! :shithappens:

Lets just leave the history for the books, and build the models and not open old wounds. There is no reason for it.

Dynamo sounds like a good idea for a GB to me, but wouldn't it kind of cross over with the proposed Blitzkrieg GB?

Just a thought, all the best

Andy S.

The Dynamo GB gives a lot of build options, I presume Blitzkrieg would be covered in that remit as well? Also as mention it's the 70th anniversary of the event, but I don't see why someone wanting to build for a Blitzkrieg GB could not use that in a Dynamo GB, the tactic was employed in France as much as it was in other countries. However the Dynamo GB also give the option for Ship builders to join in, as well as tanks and aircraft. Infact the two could bond quite well together!

If there is a planned Blitzkrieg GB maybe it could be opened up to incorporate the Timespan from the invation of Poland, up to the Dunkirk evacuation.

Ie WWII Part one , The Push from Berlin to the Channel, or Across the Flat lands to the sea. (Trying to be as diplomatic in the name)

Dave

Edited September 19, 2009 by zero

[Erwin]

Dynamo sounds like a good idea for a GB to me, but wouldn't it kind of cross over with the proposed Blitzkrieg GB?

I haven't seen a topic yet on the idea of holding a Blitzkrieg GB .

IMO,the Blitzkrieg incluided Dunkirk and ended there.

So maybe it would be best to hold the Blizkrieg GB and give a timeframe with Dunkirk incluided. And not just Dunkirk alone.

It wouldn't make much sence anyway as all the German,British and Frensh forces were involved in both subjects.

And a Blitzkrieg GB gives the advantace to be able to build Polish,Danish,Belgian,Dutch subjects too.

Edited September 19, 2009 by Erwin

[Antoine]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the PM, and nothing to add to what you say, appart from the fact that I agree 100% with you.

Erwin, the French participation in this operation was quite limited in the air, I think there were only very few missions flown.

But I remember that there was at least a few aircraft that were based in the UK at the time, and they were MB-152 (Got to search for which escadrille).

There is also some option on the sea, as we lost some good destroyers there.

Destroyer Bourrasque.

Torpilleur l'Adroit.

[AnonymousDFB1]

Gentlemen,

I don't like waking up to a PM pointing me to an argument about a proposed GB.

I'm glad to see everything has calmed down and everyone is still friends.

Some great ideas coming up, like I said in my original post if there's the support and your quick raising it there is no reason why it shouldn't run in part over the anniversary next year.

[Antoine]

Hello Mish,

Just re-read my first post completely, ssmiley included, and then Dave's answer, and tell me where the argument is?

Erwin, I'll have a look ASAP, and then come back to you (Hopefully before tomorrow).

[Maxidad]

Hello Mish,

Just re-read my first post completely, ssmiley included, and then Dave's answer, and tell me where the argument is?

I agree, sounds more like a friendly, well-informed discussion.

Zero, very intersting personal connection with your grandfathers - it's a good read, and must make you feel proud to know your rellies served with such distinction.

From a purely personal point of view, I like the idea of Dynamo better for a GB. The narrower subject, I think, makes modellers choose their subjects with more care, and could display a broad range of interesting and specific builds which illuminates this pivotal military episode. Whilst Blitzkrieg is naturally a theme which could attract a very broad range of subjects, I think Britmodeller's "raison d'etre" - (notice the linguistic skills Antoine?) is to approach the hobby from a Britsh slant.

[AnonymousDFB1]

Antoine it wasn't a dig at you, just a polite reminder to all as I got a PM after someone reported a post as being inappropriate. Okay argument was too strong a word,my apologies. I saw nothing wrong with your post, just wanted to nip any nonsense that may have been brewing in the bud.

Now lets get this suggestion rolling...

[Antoine]

No apologies needed, Mish, really.

Two French squadrons were stationed in England between the 27 May 1940 up to 5 June 1940 for the GR I/14 with Potez 63 and between 30 May 1940 up to 5 June 1940 for the GC II/8 with Bloch 152. The 5 Potez and 13 Bloch aircraft were at the airfield of Lympne for the 'Operation Dynamo' above the beaches of Dunkerque. Two Glenn Martin aircraft from GB I/63 were also at Lympne some hours to drop medicine parcels above the beaches. A Bloch 220 and a Caudron Goeland were also in England to bring stores and supplies.

GC II/8 was based at Calais/Marck before going to Lympne.

Here is a not so good profile about one of their aircraft:

[Mike]

Antoine it wasn't a dig at you, just a polite reminder to all as I got a PM after someone reported a post as being inappropriate. Okay argument was too strong a word,my apologies. I saw nothing wrong with your post, just wanted to nip any nonsense that may have been brewing in the bud.

Now lets get this suggestion rolling...

Amen... well said

[Erwin]

Gentlemen,

I don't like waking up to a PM pointing me to an argument about a proposed GB.

I can only agree with Mish.

When proposing a GB or replying to it,let's not get into a historical debade on who was right or wrong.

Stick to the subject with proposed builds and discuss that.

This way we won't have the chance that a inocently started remark turns into a can of worms.

[zero]

.

It wouldn't make much sence anyway as all the German,British and Frensh forces were involved in both subjects.

And a Blitzkrieg GB gives the advantace to be able to build Polish,Danish,Belgian,Dutch subjects too.

A Humm!!!!!

Didn't you read this part of my post! LOL

If there is a planned Blitzkrieg GB maybe it could be opened up to incorporate the Timespan from the invation of Poland, up to the Dunkirk evacuation.

Ie WWII Part one, The Push from Berlin to the Channel, or Across the Flat lands to the sea. (Trying to be as diplomatic in the name)

Dave

[zero]

Antoine it wasn't a dig at you, just a polite reminder to all as I got a PM after someone reported a post as being inappropriate. Okay argument was too strong a word,my apologies. I saw nothing wrong with your post, just wanted to nip any nonsense that may have been brewing in the bud.

Now lets get this suggestion rolling...

Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room.

No being honest I can see I touched a nerve, (bound to) however as I said, my intention was purely to raise a multi-model GB with a good flexible theme, not to open the history books as to the rights and wrongs of History. Sadly that something none of us can change. However maybe as I tried to point out, sometimes it good to remember the errors, as a point of learning from them. This is why we all freely Stand in Silence on the 11th of November, at 11am.

The Name means nothing, however I still think the theme is better suited as a wider subject coverage as possible, so Poland to Dunkirk seems like it could work for all?

Dave

Edited September 19, 2009 by zero

[zero]

Zero, very intersting personal connection with your grandfathers - it's a good read, and must make you feel proud to know your rellies served with such distinction.

It does, it does indeed.

Sadly my Dads Father (Harry) would never talk of the war, I'm sure he saw some grusome sights, it he served as a fireman from the start to the finish, infact I don't know when he stopped (I have obtained his service record from The London Fire Brigade, but I don't have it to hand at present) but I know his lot was as hard.

I know he was also at the docks the night they were bombed,

Quote I can well

remember the night the London Docks went up, the sky was red and we all went out to see lit.

From: http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/20/a7916420.shtml

Dave

[gcn]

Poland to Dunkirk seems a good idea to me. I'll add my hat to ring on this.

[zero]

Poland to Dunkirk seems a good idea to me. I'll add my hat to ring on this.

Yes Agree, also it seems fitting as we have already had a Battle of Britain GB, and a D-Day GB too.

Also this remit covers a lot of subject, countries and options.

Dave

[Erwin]

Yes Agree, also it seems fitting as we have already had a Battle of Britain GB, and a D-Day GB too.

Also this remit covers a lot of subject, countries and options.

Dave

There's even room for some Belgian subject. Very good GB !

[gengriz]

Not wishing to raise any hackles (honest), but why Poland to Dunkirk? This is potentially a very controversial choice of embarkation point!

Dunkirk was neither the end of the Battle of France, nor of the BEF.

The evacuation at Dunkirk (Op Dynamo) in May 1940 only rescued part of the BEF, which had been outmaneouvered and was thus unable to contribute to the ongoing defence of France. Lord Gort's original plan was to re-insert it further west to continue the fight, but it was in such a depleted state that it had to remain in the UK.

The remainder of the BEF fought on until the end of June. Indeed some Canadian and Scots Divisions only landed in France on the 12th June as reinforcements, a week after Op Dynamo had ended.

This is still a genuinely sensitive point in parts of Scotland, where very few were able to celebrate the carefully orchestrated propaganda of "the miracle of Dunkirk" and where the widespread belief that British resistance in France ended at Dunkirk is seen as an insult to the memory of the men who continued the fight.

For example, the 51st Highland Division (10,000 men), incorporated in the French IX Corps had been at the heart of the fighting since the start of the Blitzkreig, and was preparing for the crucial Anglo-French counter-attack at Abbeville whilst the rest of the BEF shuffled onto their little ships further north. The entire Division was subsequently captured en-masse at St Valery-en-Caux on 12 June when an evacuation plan (in 209 ships) failed due to the coast being fog-bound. After that, "Norman Force" under General Sir Alan Brooke, and comprising the 3rd Armoured Brigade, 157th Infantry Brigade, 71st Field Regiment R.A. and the 52nd Lowland Division, continued to fight under the command of the French 10th Army, until the 18 June when it was evacuated from Cherbourg.

The final organised exacuation was part of Operation Ariel, which ended on 25 June with the evacuation of 4,000 Canadian Troops at St Nazaire. Overall, Ariel involved nearly as many men as Dynamo, albeit spread over many more ports. It was also nearly a month after Dunkirk had ended.

If you want a British orientated "Poland to ......" title, it would be far better, more accurate and more honourable to make it Poland to St Nazaire.

[AnonymousA667]

It's not raising my hackles Fred. Every time a group build theme is suggested a number of people pop and say why don't we do such and such to the extent that the original idea becomes completely diluted. Focus is lost and you might as well say 'build anything you like lads'.

peebeep