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Painted Roundel advise


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Hi all,

I've been playing around with building an RAF Coastal Command Flying Fortress and decided to try airbrushing the Roundels as the kit only comes with Yank stuff. It's the (rather large) Revell 1/48 B17 "Memphis Belle" painted with Tamiya acrylics.

Does this look okay to you?

001.jpg

003.jpg

Comments, observations and criticism welcome.

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Ditto, they look good to me as well....that will be a sharp B-17 when done....Cheers,

ggc

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They look prety good to me.

How will you be tackling the fuselage roundels? Same method?

Observation.

Wing Fillet demarcation line!

Think it should follow the fillet up the fuselage.

From a plan view you would have 2 white wedges showing.

Adrian

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...the kit only comes with Yank stuff.

...rather large) Revell 1/48 B17 "Memphis Belle" painted with Tamiya acrylics.

Does this look okay to you?

Well it looks strange to me, being a yank :cowboy: and not used to seeing British B-17s.

BUT as it is a RAF Coastal Command it looks great! your paint job looks flawless, crisp and clean. :thumbsup:

re:picture 1 [said in a quiet aside: of course your overspray went all over the babys blankie] :rolleyes:

001.jpg

003.jpg

Comments, observations and criticism welcome.

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I was wondering if the colours were too bright?

Edgar seems to think they are okay so i'll quietly slink away with my popcorn to watch

She's going to look stunning- can't wait to see her finished

hope the babby wasn't under the blankie when you were spraying

baby Rambo :yikes:

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I was wondering if the colours were too bright?

Edgar seems to think they are okay so i'll quietly slink away with my popcorn to watch

Not just me, matey; this comes from James Goulding, Dick Ward, and the RAF Museum, and their research is not only better than, but predates, mine, by a long way.

Edgar

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Thanks all. I've never thought about spraying decals till I read about it here and saw it on a very, very nice Hunter. Sorry, I can't remember who did it. :blush:

They look prety good to me.

How will you be tackling the fuselage roundels? Same method?

Thanks Adrian, as these roundels turned out okay and got good feedback I'm going to try making the other more complicated ones the same way. I must be mad. :banghead:I think I've just let myself in for a whole lot of aggro and hassle here. I certainly need to improve my masking techniques though, especially for spraying on a very matt surface like this one is.

Observation.

Wing Fillet demarcation line!

Think it should follow the fillet up the fuselage.

From a plan view you would have 2 white wedges showing.

Adrian

Sorry mate, you've lost me on this one. Is a "Wing fillet" the curved area where the wing joins the fuselage? If so then I see what you mean. The line itself looks a bit horrible too. :undecided:

I didn't realise when I started this what a difficult colour white is to work with. It shows up ANY mistake at all (and there are quite a few on this beastie) especially in areas that i hadn't noticed weren't fully masked... . :wall:

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I was wondering if the colours were too bright?

Edgar seems to think they are okay so i'll quietly slink away with my popcorn to watch

She's going to look stunning- can't wait to see her finished

hope the babby wasn't under the blankie when you were spraying

baby Rambo :yikes:

Hi Walrus,

The baby that almost got sprayed was the Airfix 1/48 Hawk that's almost finished. I noticed it right behind the spray area just in time!

Edited by Murdo
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Only after 1942; "matt" i.e, bright(ish), before then.

Edgar

Hi Edgar, At the risk of opening a new can o'worms here(!) "Matt" to me would indicate "non-glossy" and would therefore have no bearing on the shade of the colour.

In my modelling mind "Dull Red" refers to the brownish shade of almost brick red used pre-war right up to the late fortiies (though not entirely, its well documented that some BoB Hurricanes & Spitfires were exceptions).

Bright Red would be the shade used pre and post - war - as Post Office/Cherry Red?

And sorry for hi-jacking this thread, though it does have a direct bearing on the roundels painted on Murdo's B17, which should surely be this dull brickish red - which incidentally feature in all the RAF WW2 Modeldecal Roundel sheets as issued by Dick Ward...............

Edited by Bill Clark
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And sorry for hi-jacking this thread, though it does have a direct bearing on the roundels painted on Murdo's B17, which should surely be this dull brickish red - which incidentally feature in all the RAF WW2 Modeldecal Roundel sheets as issued by Dick Ward...............

No Hi-jack at all mate... Crack on!

:popcorn:

If the decal pics taken in daylight (or what pathetically passes as daylight here recently) were too bright how could I dim/shade them down? A few passes of Tamiya Smoke?

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Having been pounced on, and hammered, on another thread, for daring to say that a colour sample (viewed in indirect daylight, incidentally,) in a book, looked darker than another on a (backlit) computer screen, I've been debating how (or even if) to answer this.

I don't have any of Dick Ward's decal sheets, but I do have a sample of his class, and style, of research, in the centre pages of "Spitfire, the History." There are several pages of colour illustrations, and, on the sixth, Dick has drawn colour depictions of the roundel types, with the dull red version marked "Dark red from May, 1942."

Further on, there are illustrations by James Goulding, and all of his drawings of the early airframes have bright red/blue roundels, with dull red/blue only on the late-war types. In his "Camouflage & Markings" series, Goulding writes about the change to dull red, saying that the changes were introduced in the middle of May, and the Spitfire drawing was amended 21-5-42 (presumably that means that he'd seen a copy.)

In the RAF Museum's book, on camouflage, everyone, of course, refers to the colour chart, but few, apparently, read the preceding page. I never met J.M. Bruce, who was "Keeper of Aircraft and Research Studies," at Hendon, when the book was written, but he is reputed to have been an absolute stickler for accuracy, and he wrote "The colours reproduced in facsimile on the following fold-out sheet represent the standard colours as used on RAF aircraft in the Second World War, and are taken from the Colour Standards of the Ministry of Aircraft Production, first issued in September 1942. Subsequent additions to these colours were included in the Standard of Colour Gloss and Smoothness for Aircraft Finishes by the Ministry of Supply. Colours reproduced from the latter volume are: Matt Red and Matt Blue (which were used prior to 1942 and after the war); and Matt Black (which came into use towards the end of the War)."

With three references, of that class, I'd rather take their word, for this, unless, and until, someone comes up with official written evidence that says otherwise.

scan0008.jpg

This is the chart, from the RAF Museum's book, and, although difficult to read, the bottom, bright, red and blue are marked "Matt Red" and "Matt Blue," while the (dull) red and blue are marked as, simply, that.

Incidentally, and to give further indication of how information often doesn't get read, thoroughly (and I'm as guilty as the next man,) it's an oft-repeated theme that "Bomber Command used matt paints throughout the war." Well, they didn't, and there's a confirmatory letter, in Kew, saying that the Command was replacing Special Night with Night, and going over to Smooth-type paints with immediate effect. This letter is dated early 1943, and (missed by everyone, including me,) there was a confirmatory AMO A.1377/42, which ordered the deletion of "matt finish" from the "Temperate land scheme" in the list of colours to be used for Night bombers, at home, plus the change to Night.

Edgar

Edited by Edgar
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Having been pounced on, and hammered, on another thread, for daring to say that a colour sample (viewed in indirect daylight, incidentally,) in a book, looked darker than another on a (backlit) computer screen, I've been debating how (or even if) to answer this.

I don't have any of Dick Ward's decal sheets, but I do have a sample of his class, and style, of research, in the centre pages of "Spitfire, the History." There are several pages of colour illustrations, and, on the sixth, Dick has drawn colour depictions of the roundel types, with the dull red version marked "Dark red from May, 1942."

Further on, there are illustrations by James Goulding, and all of his drawings of the early airframes have bright red/blue roundels, with dull red/blue only on the late-war types. In his "Camouflage & Markings" series, Goulding writes about the change to dull red, saying that the changes were introduced in the middle of May, and the Spitfire drawing was amended 21-5-42 (presumably that means that he'd seen a copy.)

In the RAF Museum's book, on camouflage, everyone, of course, refers to the colour chart, but few, apparently, read the preceding page. I never met J.M. Bruce, who was "Keeper of Aircraft and Research Studies," at Hendon, when the book was written, but he is reputed to have been an absolute stickler for accuracy, and he wrote "The colours reproduced in facsimile on the following fold-out sheet represent the standard colours as used on RAF aircraft in the Second World War, and are taken from the Colour Standards of the Ministry of Aircraft Production, first issued in September 1942. Subsequent additions to these colours were included in the Standard of Colour Gloss and Smoothness for Aircraft Finishes by the Ministry of Supply. Colours reproduced from the latter volume are: Matt Red and Matt Blue (which were used prior to 1942 and after the war); and Matt Black (which came into use towards the end of the War)."

With three references, of that class, I'd rather take their word, for this, unless, and until, someone comes up with official written evidence that says otherwise.

scan0008.jpg

This is the chart, from the RAF Museum's book, and, although difficult to read, the bottom, bright, red and blue are marked "Matt Red" and "Matt Blue," while the (dull) red and blue are marked as, simply, that.

Incidentally, and to give further indication of how information often doesn't get read, thoroughly (and I'm as guilty as the next man,) it's an oft-repeated theme that "Bomber Command used matt paints throughout the war." Well, they didn't, and there's a confirmatory letter, in Kew, saying that the Command was replacing Special Night with Night, and going over to Smooth-type paints with immediate effect. This letter is dated early 1943, and (missed by everyone, including me,) there was a confirmatory AMO A.1377/42, which ordered the deletion of "matt finish" from the "Temperate land scheme" in the list of colours to be used for Night bombers, at home, plus the change to Night.

Edgar

Hi Edgar, I wouldn't pounce on you mate - I like you too much!! I was though only asking...

.Just so we are clear here I'm referring to the use of Dull Red in National Markings as opposed to Bright Red (i.e Post Office or Cherry Red) used Pre and Post War - NOT the glossiness or Matt-ness of the colour.......

I've looked at The Spitfire Book and see what you mean regarding Dick Ward's comments and diagrams. I found this a bit baffling, so dug out a few Modeldecal sheets.. One of them was Modeldecal Sheet 107 "British Pre War Roundels 1918-1938". In Dick Wards notes (dated 1990) it has the following text......"There has been some confusion regarding the colours of roundels and fin flashing on aircraft of the 1938-42 period, and some have assumed that these later roundels were painted in the original bright colours, the dull colours only coming into use with the changeover in 1942 to the type "C" markings. This is not so, for the dull colours were also introduced for national markings at the same time as the new range of matt camouflage paints were specified for all new aircraft coming off the production lines from April 1937"

ALL of the Modeldecal sheets with RAF WW2 roundels have this dull shade of red in them , and they are quoted as being from 1937 onwards

I've also dug our Paul Lucas's "Camouflage and Markings No 2" one of the Scale Aircraft Monograph's "The Battle For Britain - RAF May - December 1940".

Page 13..." With the introduction of camouflage in 1936, some changes were made to the national marking. Firstly the traditional bright red and bright blue were replaced by the dull night flying shades of red and blue.........the introduction of these dull shades was taken to try to avoid compromising the camouflage finish..."

Lucas's book does describe a few anomalies to this....certain factories carried on using the bright colours, Glosters it seemed used bright colours up until 1940

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looks good to me i'd be interested to know the Tamiya mixes you used to get there

[Ohcrapohcrapohcrap] :undecided:

I'm now almost too scared to admit... I just used Tamiya X-4 Blue and XF-7 Flat Red straight from the bottle.

:door:

Edited by Murdo
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